Season 3 Bonus Episode
Vince Lombardo, Celine Williams and Josh Linkner

Chris Allen: So, I thought it’d be really good for you to talk about the difference between what is rumbling versus what is feedback.

Celine Williams: Well…and I’m going to say that this is how we kind of defined it inside of Heartland. This was defined for this purpose. Someone can take these things. You could read Brene Brown’s book and be like, “They’re the exact same thing, and we’re going to implement it that way.” Great. Do whatever you need to do.

Chris: Yeah.

Celine: We made this distinction because people were calling...the…

Vince Lombardo: I know what words you almost just said, and I wanted to say it too, but they were definitely using them incorrectly, one tool for the other.

Celine: Yes. Yes.

Vince: And this is an example of us evolving what we built.

Celine: Absolutely. And learning. “Oh, we have to be really clear on what these things are, so they’re used effectively.” So, the distinction that we made was that, this is very simple, and I’ll explain it, but you rumble about things, and you give feedback to people. So, if you’re having a conversation about a business, or a disagreement, or you need to find alignment, or we’re figuring out the best way to do something, but it’s tense and we’re not on the...that’s a rumble, right? There is a thing, an idea, a conversation, that’s a rumble.

Vince: It’s a difference of opinion about how to do something.

Celine: Exactly.

Vince: Yeah.

“Rumbling vs. feedback”

Celine: But if I’m going to tell you that I...by the way, feedback is both constructive, and positive feedback. So, it’s not...but if I’m going to tell you either, “You’ve done something amazingly well and I want you to do more of that,” or, “That behavior was not great, didn’t get the outcome,” that’s feedback, and that’s a really different setup to the conversation than rumbling. And separating those out so that people could get really clear on if you’re telling someone about their behavior, you have that conversation separately, because what was happening was that it would just become a mess, and then people are activated, and they’re missing the point of the ideas never getting resolved, you’re never getting alignment, and people’s feelings are hurt, and we’re all saying all of the things that we’re upset, and it would just escalate so quickly. When you separate them out, it becomes easier to prepare for the conversation, because you really should be preparing for those conversations differently.

Josh Linkner: Can I ask you a quick question?

Celine: Yes.

Josh: Because you’re obviously an expert in this. When you think about feedback, I love that you have many cases so far in the conversation, “I’m making a distinction between these two things.” That’s a really helpful construct. I’ve often thought when I’m giving feedback, “Am I being a judge or a coach?”

Celine: Yep.

Josh: As you sit in a robe, and you sit down and look down at someone and judge them harshly and you’re about penalty and such, that’s not constructive generally.

Celine: No.

Josh: Versus a coach, like, “Okay, I’m going to help you improve in the future.” How do you think about setting up feedback in a way that is most constructive, and less destructive?

Celine: First and foremost, if I’m giving you feedback because you’ve done something a different way than I would do it, or because I didn’t like it, that’s not feedback that’s about me, I am going to take a huge step back, and pause and be like, “I need to figure out what’s really going on.” We don’t do that very much as leaders. That is a hard thing to learn to do, because we want things done our way, and being able to pause, and notice that, that is a huge difference for me. So, that’s where the judge comes in, where it’s like, “Oh, you didn’t do it the way I wanted.” So, first and foremost, that.

Secondly, if I’m not able to give you feedback in a way, or I can’t position the feedback or express it in a way that’s actually about you, and being valuable to you, I’m also probably going to take a huge step back, and think about is that really feedback? I always think of feedback as about helping the other person be their favorite version of themselves, to use that language, but to be the best version of themselves. So, that is, what are the things that you’re doing really well? What are your strengths? I’m going to give you that feedback, and acknowledge you for that, and pause, and be like, “That was really great.”

I know I’ve done this with you many times where I’m like, “Can we pause, and just...that, what you did, and how you’re showing up, that’s huge. Let’s acknowledge it. Let’s take a moment.” Because we don’t get a lot of positive feedback, and it is really important. So, that is the first thing I would say. And when it’s constructive about that, when it’s constructive feedback, I want to make sure it is not...it’s expressed about the behavior, and what could be a better outcome for you. And it may be something that someone doesn’t want to hear, and I have to be okay with that. And I have to get consent to go into the conversation.

Because that’s the other thing, is we often give feedback when we’re reacting, not when we’re actually being thoughtful about setting up the conversation. That’s a terrible way to give and receive feedback. Nobody likes that, but it’s why we avoid feedback conversations. We also only think of feedback as when we’ve done something wrong. Well, if we create a pattern where we’re giving feedback in an ongoing way, good and bad, constructive, and positive, whatever you want to call it, we stop avoiding those conversations, because we know it’s in service of us getting better.

Josh: That’s so good. I always wondered, even the name of things, so it should be called feedback? Because we’re so triggered by that word. If it’s something positive, maybe it’s an acknowledgment. If it’s something for the future, maybe it’s coaching. I don’t know.

Celine: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Josh: A friend of mine, somebody…used great words. He’s like, “I have an invitation for you.” That’s very non-threatening. It’s not like, “You did this wrong, and you’re going to be fired if you don’t...” An invitation. Something to consider. How about showing up this way? And of course you don’t want to beat around the bush, you want to be direct, but that opens the person up to hearing it, as opposed to them shutting down.

Celine: Yes.

Vince: I would say that the difference between the coach and the judge, and how you show up, where the individual is trying to go, and what they’re trying to accomplish, and the feedback can help get them there.

Josh: That’s good.

Vince: The judge is unaware of that, and is just acknowledging a behavior that they are not okay with, and they might be in a place of authority to have that opinion.

Josh: Yeah, perfectly said.

Celine: But I think that’s often why leaders don’t get feedback the same way that, let’s call them frontline employees, do.

Vince: Yeah, because everyone’s scared to tell the guy above them.

Celine: Exactly.

Vince: Yeah.

Celine: And it has to start with...so I think cultures of feedback, and by the way, I also hate the language of feedback, but we all understand it, which is the problem. So, we keep using it, but coaching, I think their acknowledgement, there is better language day to day. But the idea of feedback, we all understand. I think in a culture of feedback, and I do think every organization, I don’t care if it’s two people, or 2000 people, that really should become part and parcel of how we operate, but it has to start with leaders being open to not only giving feedback, because every leader’s like, “I can pass judgment on everyone around me.”

Vince: “It’s my job.”

Celine: “It’s my job to judge everyone.” But it has to start with them inviting feedback, and consistently, because people are not going to be comfortable the first few times it happens...maybe the first 25 times it happens, but consistently inviting it, and responding to it, and doing something with it, even if it’s to say, “I appreciate that. I don’t know what I will do with the information you shared with me, but I really appreciate you sharing your perspective, and the impact it had.” But some acknowledgement and doing something with it. It has to start with leaders. Otherwise, what you’re doing is you’re creating a culture of judgment, where the leaders get to pass judgment on everyone else’s behavior, but they’re up on their thrones and pedestals, like, “No one can tell me what’s wrong with me, or what’s good about me either.”

“Cultural norms. Unspoken things.”

Josh: Sounds like what you’re doing is you’re creating psychological safety when you do that.

Celine: Yep, absolutely.

Chris: I think another thing is there are people who will turn on the afterburners to get to a leadership position, in order to avoid having to be in that position of only receiving feedback.

Celine: Absolutely.

Chris: And that is where politics and all those things sort show up. And I want to talk about cultural norms, because there are things, like when you define sort of attributes of your culture, and how you want to operate, and you got your values, you have your ways of working, there are things in the culture that aren’t necessarily expressed.

Celine: Yes.

Vince: That just are there. They exist.

Chris: They just sort of happen.

Chris: And I think it would be helpful for people listening to hear some of those stories, just bubble up some of those stories and be like, “Here’s something we identified as a cultural norm that was going on.” Like politics, we don’t have...this is sort of the dark side of everything that we’re talking about, because there is a dark side to cultures, there are things that happen, even as a result of installing a lot of these tenets and things like that. What are some of the things that maybe y’all have seen that have been cultural norms, or subculture sort of things, that have happened, especially in larger organizations?

Josh: I did a little something funny years ago. In our case, I had a company called ePrize. We were very far ahead, the largest interactive promotion agency kind of busted through. We didn’t have a strong number two competitor, and I realized that often greatness is achieved in the face of adversity. Great sports teams, or business rivalries. And so I made up a fake competitor, so it became part of our culture. I had a full company meeting, I said, “I’d like to introduce you, everybody, to the Slither Corporation.” Slither was our fictitious nemesis, like the made-up bad guys. We created a logo, remember the Enron E? It looked like...it was an S in the Enron E, so they had their own logo. And Slither, I explained to the team, was there was a company out there, they’re faster than us, bigger than us, more effective, better customers. They were like our ideal competitor that never had a down quarter.

And while we’d sometimes learn from Slither, like, “What’s your counterpart at Slither doing differently than you?” And it became an instructive way to help us kind of cut through some of the noise. For example, we’d say like, “Hey,” instead of saying, before Slither, “We need to shave two days out of our production time. How do we do that?” People get clammed up. “I don’t want to say the wrong thing, I don’t want to look bad.”

So we’d say something like this, “Our spies at Slither just got a report that Slither shaved two days out of their production time. What do you think they did over at Slither to do that?” And all of a sudden the whiteboards were filled with ideas, because we took judgment, and fear away. But the one thing that Slither was worse on was our values. So we created these little cartoon characters that were the opposite of our values. So, for example, there was one character whose name was Lou, his last name was Pole, get it? Lou Pole. And Lou Pole was always finding the loophole. There were twins, Vic and Tim. They were constantly the victim, always finding...and so, we called it out in a fun, playful way, and identified these antithesis of our values, which helped us reinforce what we actually wanted to embrace as a cultural norm.

Celine: Man, that’s awesome.

Josh: We had T-shirts, all kinds of crazy stuff. It’s very fun.

Vince: That’s hilarious. It’s actually a really good real life example of, super organized and structured, of what I was going to say, which was really the complement I think to our experience in the world of the Heartland culture. We never talked about having fun in our values, but levity and humor are regular parts, I think, of our environment, appropriate levity and humor, that we never said are our thing, but they exist in a complimentary way. I would say it was a really cool part of how we operate as a business, that I think made things less serious when they maybe needed a little bit of some laughter.

Chris: Well, I remember one of my first couple of calls, I think it was Wes, one of the things, like a guy named Wes Williams, so hilarious. He is notorious for opening a call that’s silent, and just start talking.

Vince: He breaks the uncomfortable…people not talking.

Chris: Yeah.

Vince: Yeah.

Chris: And it’s like people are expecting Wes to show up and do that. So, that’s a cultural norm for us, something like that. But I think one of the things that was really interesting for me is at one point Wes started razzing, and poking me, and Vince kind of paused and was just like, “Hey, before you potentially get offended, Chris, this means that things are going well. If it wasn’t happening...” And I was like, “Okay.” That is not defined in the Heartland way, but it is something that tended to happen.

I think one of the things that I think that we’ve talked about a lot, just about the culture that we work in every day, has been this idea of something, I brief people, when I am in any type of interview, I’m going to say, “We need to have a conversation about what it would feel like for you to be in a feelings-first organization.” Because it’s not a performance-first organization, even though we hit numbers. There’s a lot of feelings, a lot of feelings going around. And that is one of the things that I think can be a big challenge, is if you live out of your feelings, it’s not always reality. And those are some of the things that I think that we wrestle with, and it is a cultural thing in our culture, is this sort of, “I’m in my feelings.” And I think one of the things that has helped with pressing through that has been having the tool set to ground people. But I think that’s a part of our subculture, is there’s a lot of feelings. I know your coaches experienced this on a regular basis…

“All organizations are feelings-first organizations.”

Celine: So, yes they do. But I would actually say, here’s where I would challenge you. I think every organization is a feelings-first organization.

Chris: You think so?

Celine: Because everything that we do as humans starts with feelings. The difference is you don’t talk about them in most organizations.

Chris: Oh, that’s pretty good.

Celine: And you pretend they don’t exist. So you have toxic behaviors, you have other behaviors that show up around it. The feelings are still there, you’re just not talking about them. I think it is really different when you talk about feelings. I think when you put relationships first, you have to talk about feelings.

Chris: Yeah.

Celine: I think the messiness comes because not everyone, one, can identify the feeling they’re feeling. Two, knows how to sit with the feeling they’re feeling, to turn it into a behavior that is going to accomplish what they want it to accomplish. And then three, actually go, and execute that behavior, or clean up, or figure out what’s going on and circle back. Not everyone can do that.

 That’s the challenge, I think, in this organization, is that there are people who do that really effectively. There are people who learn how to do that very effectively. And then there are people who are like, “I don’t feel feelings, because there’s no crying in baseball, and I don’t need to bring my feelings to work, because that’s not a thing that happens.” They’re always there. Every decision we make starts with feelings. 

Chris: I think that’s good. One of the things that I love that you talk about is with your invitation is the whole person comes to work.

Celine: Yeah.

Chris: So I think one of the things that we do as well is there’s a lot of... There’s maybe more depth in the conversations, because like, “Hey, what’s going on with you?”

Celine: Yes.

Chris: And I think a lot of the leaders, something you do well is like, “Hey, what’s going on with you?” It isn’t just checking in on how are the kids. Right?

“The whole person comes to work.”

Celine: Well, and I will say, I think that you are...I’m going to compliment you. Don’t get used to this. I think you are a very consistent example about caring about the whole person as a leader, and you always, since I’ve known you from the first time we met in person, you’ve always shown up that way. That’s not comfortable for some people. But you’re so consistent about it, and you can see the depth of relationships that you create as a result, and that has enabled that inside the organization, because, to your point, and inside your team, but to your point that you said earlier, you want to work with people you like and you actually feel connected to. I think that’s the ideal.

I said, last night at dinner I was like, “I want to work, coach with,” I’m probably a terrible coach, because I don’t have the boundaries that coaches are supposed to have in certain ways, because I actually want to connect with people, and I think it makes me better at the work that I do with...whether it’s with cultures, and organizations, or individuals, or teams, because we are all whole, real people showing up, and looking to connect. And you have always been a great example of that, of really owning it, and being okay to ask deeper, more connected questions than the usual, like, “Hey, how’s the wife and kids doing at home? Cool.” Next thing.

Vince: Yeah, I appreciate that.

Josh: I’d love to hear some of yours. I’ve been trying to ask better questions…say, because it’s like, “How are you doing?” “Fine.” Why even talk? That’s a silly thing to say. So I’ve been saying things, depending on how close I am with someone, instead of like, “Hi, how are you doing?” I’m like, “What are you excited about this week?” That’s kind of fun. That’s gentle. If I know someone a little bit better I might say, “What’s been weighing on you? Are you struggling with anything recently?” And just again, based on the depth of the relationship, but you invite a very different conversation, even when you say, “What are you excited about?” Versus, “How are you doing?” But what are some of the questions that you ask people to create those deep connections?

Vince: Well...

Celine: “What’s the hardest thing you’ve ever experienced in your life?”

Josh: “Tell me about your...”

Vince: Oh, the playbook. The playbook. Look, the truth is I think that I was born a really curious person. There are stories about me in carpools where I just didn’t stop asking questions, to the point that people wanted to get me out of the car. They would drive to our house first, even though it was the hardest one to get to. And so, I’ve always been really curious, and I think that people are fascinating. But I actually think it starts with a foundational conversation that could be, it’s oftentimes really nice to have it over a meal, a long dinner, where you just share each other’s life stories.

We are all products of not awesome stuff, and awesome stuff. 

All of us have some kind of trauma, or crap that happened in our life that helped us become who we are, in bad and good ways. And when you understand that about people, and they understand that about you, there’s a mutual accountability, and there’s mutual permission to press into those topics. And most people’s life stories, if they’re willing to be vulnerable enough, and if not, you can ask other questions to get it out, involve some of those really hard things that may be current. And if they’re current, you don’t have to have a bag of questions, because you’re just checking in on how that thing’s going. And for each of the people that you get that deep, and that real with, it’s not hard to stay there.

I think the harder part for me is how do I take a one hour one-on-one, and after 10 or 12 minutes, get to the things about the business, because there’s so much going on in people’s lives. Little things like dropping kids off at college, and big things like divorces are equally tough for some people, and creating space for people to just know that you know about that does two things. One, it lets you really care about the individual at a different level than, “Did you do your job this week?”

But two, it doesn’t allow either of you to hide, and when you can’t hide from each other, and accountability exists to perform, that I have not found another path to. 

When everybody knows what’s going on in my life, what I’m struggling with, I can’t use it as the excuse for why I’m not doing my thing, and vice versa. And I think there’s value in that mutual accountability, because it comes with a foundation of respect, and genuinely caring about the other person. Now the truth is you can’t do that with 10,000 people. You could probably do it with 10 or 20. And at the end of the day, that’s the center of influence that just about any leader actually needs in order for the organization to thrive.

So, I don’t have a bag of tricks as much as I do, just like, I really genuinely want to get to know the person.

Josh: That’s far better than a bag of tricks. That’s awesome.

“Trust that anchors.”

Celine: So I just want to speak to something that you mentioned when you were talking about the accountability inside those conversations. I think that there is often, and I’ve seen it, we’ve seen it in this organization early on, there is a lot of tension between... Or there can be, there doesn’t have to be, a lot of tension between accountability and the relationship side. So, people either go real heavy on the accountability, and every conversation is only about, “Did you hit your numbers, did you do this?” It’s that checkbox, and there are some leaders that probably are still around, but definitely were around, where that was where they focused.

Or, they’re so heavy on the relational connectedness that they don’t do...there’s no accountability inside of it. And what you’re talking about is a balance of where you know enough, you know about the person, you’re showing up, you’re making space for that, but that actually enables the accountability, not only in a personal way, but in a business way as well. And that is magic. And I think that is what more leaders, and organizations, and cultures should be aspiring to create, is that balance. And it’s going to be messy getting there, and figuring out, and there’s not one way to do it, but finding that balance is really the key to people doing their best work, and being their best selves in whatever you’re looking for.

Chris: One of the things that I experienced coming to this organization, is I was probably going through the... Probably the dark night of the soul, the worst part of my entire life when I started working here. And the reality is, I could have kept that a secret, and hidden, and I would not have succeeded here.

Vince: Which you tried to do at first, because the nature of your history, in other cultures was to not talk about that.

Chris: Yeah. Don’t talk about it. And one of the things that I learned, because I like what you said about this sort of sphere of influence where you can really invest in about 10 to 20 people. In order to get 10,000 people to operate in sort of a cohesive sort of way, and the way that we are designing, that we want people to live, other people have to live that way. And one of the things that I think has been really helpful for me is the trust that sort of anchors all of this kind of stuff takes some time to get to you.

I’m a Speed of Trust kind of person. It’s sort of like if I meet you, I tend to trust you until you’ve proven that you’re not trustworthy. And I think that there’s a lot to be said about this organization, where I didn’t have to keep my ugly a secret, and no one used it as a weapon, or I didn’t use it as a shield. I think that that’s one of the other things, is weaponizing, or using these attributes as a weapon or a shield I think is another danger zone sort of thing that can happen. I think one of the things that I love about a lot of what you do is there’s a lot of playful sort of animated ways that you express, and expect your portfolio of companies and founders to express themselves. Why did you land on such approachable, animated, role-playing type of ways of working?

Josh: Well, I think back to what you said, we’re all feeling people. And so, I’m trying to think about, we talked about empathy earlier, how’s it going to land? So, if I went up and said, “These are the edicts,” and I’m pounding the table, that’s not going to land well, and I know how that would feel for me, it’d feel awful. And so I think it’s having a sensitivity about how is something going to land? Can you even approach a non-traditional way, become memorable, and part of something that is legendary, as opposed to something that’s a beat down?

I did, I always tried to do playful things. 

One time we had a good quarter, and I wanted to reward everybody with a bonus. The problem is I had about 500 people, and all I could afford was $200 a person. It’s kind of a lousy bonus. I didn’t want people to...I mean it was coming from a good place, but I didn’t want people to feel slighted. So it’s like, “All right, what can we do differently?” And so it was a Thursday afternoon, I unplugged the servers, I turned the phones off and said, “Team, I’m kidnapping the company.”

So I took everyone to the closest Best Buy, gave everyone a $200 gift card and said, “You have to spend it right now.” Pandemonium erupts. People were flying up and down the aisles, we overran the cashiers. But it’s funny, a bonus that would’ve been forgotten 10 minutes after being issued became part of corporate legend. I mean, years later people were still talking...

Vince: “Remember when he took us to Best Buy?” Yeah.

Josh: We kidnapped the company. And so, I do think that there’s an element of playfulness that can be disarming, like humor, and allow things to sink in at a deeper level.

Chris: Yeah, that’s really good. Well, we’ve talked about, I’d say, an enormous amount of defining cultures, and living in our values, and things like that. I’d like to hear from each of you, how would you frame some of these as either takeaways from the conversation, or things that you really want someone listening to this to...what points do you really want to land? Start with you, Josh.

“Live your values through adversity.”

Josh: Sure. One thing we didn’t talk about that I think is crucial, it’s one thing to live values when things are going great.

Vince: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: “Hey, everybody, be generous because we’ve had an awesome...” What about when they’re not going great? And so I think the real challenge of a leader is to live your values through adversity. And I’ll just give you a quick personal story. I set up at our company a terribly designed bonus structure. It was basically as if we had $40 million that particular year in revenue, everyone got a big bonus. If we missed it by one penny, everybody got nothing. It was a binary bonus system, terribly designed, my fault. Anyway, it worked, people were...we had monitors up around the office, and we’re all gunning for it. So, actually, December 30th, I get an email from my head of sales, “Josh, good news, $40,200,000.” And I was elated. It wasn’t even about the money, it was about this shared sense of achievement, and I was proud of my people. So I instantly fired off an email, “Congratulations. We hit it, everyone’s getting their bonus.” And it was this really big elation, and hugs, and such.

Anyway, so it was meant to be paid about 45 days after the start of the year, because that’s...okay. So, I get a knock on the door from my CFO, like two weeks before the bonus is about to be paid. 

“Oh, it was awesome, wasn’t it?” He’s like, “Yeah, Houston, we have a problem. Turns out we double counted a deal. And also we didn’t figure in for a cancellation. So instead of just hitting the bonus, we just missed it.” So, that’s a problem. So I go to my board of directors, smart fiduciary team, I’m like, “Hey, instead of just hitting it, we just missed it.” And they’re like, “Great news. We don’t have to pay a bonus this year.” The problem is I already said we were paying this bonus, and people put deposits on their kids’ camp.

Vince: Yeah. All kinds of things. Yeah.

Josh: All kinds of stuff.

Celine: Yeah.

Josh: So for the next two weeks, it was basically like the Cuban Missile Crisis with me and the board. I’m taking heavy artillery fire, and I bought them all that Speed of Trust book. And eventually I said to them, “Look,” and I took all the blame. It was my fault. I was the CEO. I said, “Here’s the thing.” And it added up to over a million dollars, and I was a small company at the time. It wasn’t like we had extra excess cash. That was a big number. I said, “Here’s the thing, that million dollars is spent, and put right or wrong aside, we already know what that answer is. We already know what’s right. But let’s just put that aside. That million dollars is already spent. It’s either going to show up as apathy and turnover, and someone’s going to walk off with a laptop, or we can show this as a demonstration of who we are. We have an opportunity to live our values through the hard stuff.”

And it was this messy thing, and I got beaten down and all this stuff. So here’s what ended up happening, full company meeting, and I explained to everybody, I said, “Here’s what I learned. I set this up.” I didn’t blame my head of sales. I said, “It’s my fault. I thought we just made it. We just missed it. We are adults. We are a performance-based organization. You don’t get a trophy for almost getting a Super Bowl.” And so I said, “So everyone is technically entitled to zero. However, the only thing in our business that supersedes performance is trust and values. And therefore, I’m telling you again, it’s my fault. I take all responsibility, but every penny of everyone’s bonus is being paid today.”

And I had grown men giving me bear hugs. There were tears everywhere and such. And I did it because it was the right thing. I wasn’t gaming it out. But oddly, and this is where I’ll kind of land this, is that that was the best million dollars I’ve ever invested, because our retention rate was through the roof, in an industry that was not. We had people showing up, staying late to solve a client problem, because they cared. I had people showing up for job interviews and saying, “I heard about what you did. I want to work at your company.” I never told anybody about it. And so, it turned out that this painful, because it was a tough moment, investment in our values, paid back massive dividends, and I can only imagine what would happen if I took the easy route and didn’t live those values. It would’ve been the opposite.

Vince: I don’t want to lose the point of his question, but I just want to hit this, because I think it might be helpful for people who watch this. Would you look back on that and say that one of your misses prior to that was the board not being aligned with the values?

Josh: Yeah, it was absolutely. And by the way, the board wasn’t being...they were just like, “Listen, these are adults. You don’t give just stuff away for that. They didn’t make the number.”

Vince: Yeah.

Josh: But I didn’t invite them into that. And what I told them eventually was I said, “Listen, the issue isn’t that we missed the bonus. They could have lived with that. The issue is that I told everyone...”

Vince: Yeah. It’s you made a commitment. You’re the CEO, yeah.

Josh: Correct.

Vince: Yeah.

Josh: And I said, “It’s not just going to...forget me. It’s going to undermine trust in our entire organization. If I don’t live those values, no one’s going to live the values.”

Vince: Yeah. Yeah, it’s very interesting. It’s really good. I heard something yesterday, to answer your question about some advice for leaders, or whatever, about Big M, and little M mentoring. Big M mentoring is somebody that you specifically ask, or hire, or work with to help mentor you as a leader. And little M mentoring is like the interactions of everyday life that happen in an office, and in relationships at work, and that you need to be in a position personally to be open to learning from the people around you, to recognize that if you yourself as a leader are not pursuing, call it your favorite version of yourself, better version of yourself, whatever the thing is, I don’t know that you should be in a position to lead others to do the same. And so I think being aware that you are never fully actualized, I guess is the word. Self actualization?

Celine: Yep. Yep.

Vince: I had a guy one time tell me in his 70s, “I think I’ve self-actualized.” I’m like, “Then you haven’t.” That’s kind of the trick, right?

Celine: Number one indicator that that’s not true.

Vince: So, people who think they have maybe shouldn’t be leading people.

Celine: Yeah.

Vince: And so, recognizing the work’s never done, and I recognize why we don’t want to call it work sometimes, but it is work, and it is discomfort. And if you find yourself comfortable, you’re probably not doing enough of the work. And I think the more we continue to pursue betterment as individual leaders, the more we create environments for other people to do the same.

Celine: Amen to that.

Josh: Beautifully said.

Celine: Yeah, I think that is...I could not have said that better. I think that is extremely true. One of the things that we kind of touched on, but it stood out in my mind, so I’m going to say it as something that I’m taking away from this conversation, when you were talking about, there’s 10 to 20 people that you can really bring into your circle. 

I think that recognizing those spheres of influence, or circles of influence, or whatever you want to call them, inside of any organization, and having people who are doing the work, who have that influence, and then each of those people doing the work, doing the work, having that influence, I think that is how you scale so much of this ultimately, is having it not be only the CEO’s job to hold all of it, or only this leader’s job. “This is my culture person, who is leading culture.”

That’s not real. If you want to scale something like this, it is all about those circles of influence, and it’s all about those leaders and those people continuously having those conversations. And we have to just acknowledge that that’s real, that it’s not one leader, or two leaders, or if the CEO is not doing it, it can’t be done. It can be, it’s harder, it takes more work. You have to get someone there eventually. But it is all about those circles of influence, and how they overlap, and using that to your benefit, to help scale these things, I think is really important.

“Recognize the work is never done.”

Chris: I totally agree. I think there’s a theme of...just maybe an observation that I’ve seen. The thing that gets in the way of the type of progress that we’re talking about is criticism. And one of the things that I noticed in my own life was, the more I found myself being critical of other people, especially as a leader, “You didn’t do this. You didn’t hit that,” and call it accountability or whatever. The more critical I was of others, it was probably 10x, I was as critical on myself.

And I’ve seen that be probably the biggest cancer that has gotten in the way of connection. It’s gotten in the way of becoming the favorite version of ourselves, and it’s definitely been a barrier for me. And the number one thing just that I’m taking away from this conversation is something that I think has sort of quelled, or quieted my inner critic, and external critic, has been gratitude every single time that I have been like, “Man, what an amazing tool I heard from Josh, that was so awesome.” Or, “Man Vince showed up and gave me feedback, or helped me see something that was really great.”

Or, it’s the relationships, and the tools, and the sort of ecosystem, the amount of gratitude that I have to be able to, one, sit down and have this conversation, but two, be able to work in an environment. I don’t ever want to work somewhere ever again that doesn’t pursue this stuff. One, no matter what organization I’m a part of, or leading, or whatever, but I’ve seen that gratitude. If I am in that place of gratitude, it tends to make the criticism really die. And I think I am so appreciative of one, for all of you coming here, and having this conversation. And I really am thankful for everything that I’ve learned, and everything that you’re doing for other people, because you are making the world better by the things that you’re saying, and you’re doing, and you’ve had a huge impact on me, and I just appreciate everybody sharing their wisdom, and sharing their experiences.

Vince: Yeah, thank you for having us.

Chris: So, much appreciated.

Celine: Absolutely. Thank you. We appreciate you.

Chris: Until next time.

Vince:What’s it called? What’s the Zach Galifianaki show with the Ferns?

Celine: Oh, Behind the Fern? Or...

Josh: Between Two Ferns?

Celine: Between Two Ferns?

Josh: That’s so funny.

Vince: We should have two ferns.

Celine: Some of those bloopers, have you seen the bloopers?

Vince: Oh, they’re so good.

Celine: Where he can’t... Oh my God. Those are my favorite. The show itself is a little odd, but the bloopers are the best part.

Vince: It’s hilarious. He literally is saying everything we all think,

Celine: Oh my God, it’s so good.

Vince: It’s fantastic.

Josh: …just talking about gratitude. Thank you for saying that too, by the way.

Chris: Yeah.