Season 03 Episode 10
Ines Nasri, Digital marketing specialist, international speaker

Making a courageous fresh start

Chris Allen: Hey, I just want to welcome Ines Nasri. Thanks for coming to the Entrepreneur’s Studio.

Ines Nasri: Thank you for having me. I’m so happy to be here.

Chris: Yeah, this is, I’m going to say a bit different of an episode for us because I’d say in Season 3, we’re really focused on bringing in experts that really know a particular part of small business growth and things like that. So the thing that I’m really excited about is to have a digital marketing conversation with you.

Ines: Okay.

Chris: Yeah?

Ines: Same thing here.

Chris: I mean, you’re a well-known digital marketer, but maybe tell us the story about how you first broke into digital marketing.

Ines: Oh, it was totally unintentional. I’m a computer science engineer and after having this degree I was like, “Okay, what’s next?” I was contacted by different companies to work for them, large companies, and I was like, “Maybe this is not what I want to do.” And then I did something, now it sounds very interesting, if not crazy, I just went back to study again, business studies, marketing, things like that because I felt like what I had with the engineering degree was not enough. Computer science is good, but I felt like there’s more. So I went back and I spent two years studying with people that had no degrees, no bachelor degrees, nothing. But they were getting basic skills to start their careers. And I was the only one with a degree and the only engineer obviously.

And then there was the president of the school and he called me and he was like, “What are you doing here? This is not for you.” And keep in mind, this was 20 years ago and I was like, “I need this knowledge and there’s nowhere else I can get that. And please let me in. Please accept me.” And he was like, “Oh, of course. We’re more than happy to have you.” And then it started that. I just had an internship for six months in a large company and then I was like, “Okay, that’s not for me. I want to do my thing.” And when I started the business, the agency, I didn’t know what I’m going to do exactly. Back then it was web marketing. The term digital marketing didn’t exist. Pretend just like it doesn’t make me look old.

Chris: Don’t worry. I have questions that’ll date me as well, yes.

Ines: And then we started building websites and things like that. And then everything else is history.

Chris: So what was the first big break that you had where you’ve got the agency and you decide, “Hey, I’ve got my niche within web marketing.” How did you break into a lot of this organic search and even some of the ad placements and things like that?

Ines: So basically I started by thinking how I can help businesses. And the more I talked to them, the more I helped them, the more I realized that they need help with education, with expanding their business. And I worked with all kind of businesses, that’s small businesses, entrepreneurs, startups. I’m talking during the 15 plus years of experience, not in the very beginning. And obviously, when you start you don’t know exactly unless you really took the time to plan and do things right, which I didn’t. And then I worked with different kind of companies, accepted different kind of projects. And that was amazing because I got to learn a lot and also discover firsthand that even big companies, I worked with different telco companies and they need help. They didn’t figure out everything. Maybe other people from when they’re looking at these companies and their logos everywhere, they think that they figured everything out, which is not true. They are still in the learning phase and they constantly learn, which is very important, I think. Maybe we get to touch base a little bit on that.

Fixing your mindset, staying relevant and enjoying the journey

Chris: Yeah, I mean, we should do it because one of the, I’d say, mindsets that we hear from time to time from entrepreneurs is the big companies have it figured out. That, “How can I compete with them and make my mark?” And I think that this is one of the things that digital marketing has leveled the playing field in a pretty big way. So talk to us about some of the education and unpacking these paradigms and mindsets that you hear with small businesses all the way up to Fortune 500 companies that you work with.

Ines: So you’re so, so right when you say that small businesses, they can leverage a lot of the technology today because they have access more than ever before to tools, to AI. We can talk about this later. And then all they need to do is just be aware in the first place. And then there is a mindset that comes with that and I’m a mentor with different organizations and I talk to small business owners every single week, at least between 10 to 20 of them every single week. And I can tell you that one of the main things that is lacking is being able to cope with all the technology that is happening, AI that happened so fast, and there’s a lot also that is in the pipe. But then the most important thing I think is to be adaptable, be curious and open to learning. Lifelong learning is not even enough anymore because it goes so fast. The pace is so fast for small business owners that already have a lot on their plates. So I think being adaptable, being curious and trying to enjoy the journey.

For instance, I talked to companies, I have this one company that I really remember and this is a 100 plus years old company. This is a family business in Southern California and then they’re successful. I mean, it’s a 100 years old company. This is huge. And I was so honored and happy to help them. But this is the thing, the mindset that the son had was like, “We’ve been here for so long. We know how to do it. We have clients from word of mouth,” and that seemed to them like it’s enough and that’s dangerous. And I was so happy to work with them and these are great people and bring some awareness in the very beginning that this is good. What you have is gold, this is amazing, but you need to go further. You need to stay relevant. I think that’s the right word. You need to stay relevant.

And then we took it to the next level and then they started getting this traffic from SEO. They started to work with the community to build this brand and take it even further than their surroundings and the area that they serve. And again, this is about mindset.

Creating a digital marketing game plan

Chris: Well, let’s just take an example of this business for example. What’s the game plan that you put into play? What’s a typical game plan to really drive growth through digital marketing with the small business?

Ines: So that’s a million dollars question.

Chris: Oh yeah.

Ines: Yeah. There’s no one answer to that. So it really depends on each business, but I’ve seen throughout the years that there are a few things that work and keep working for small businesses over and over and over again, which is basically focusing on your brand no matter what the technologies are, the new trends are the new platforms or whatever the new Google algorithm update is. When you have a brand, you have something that is really precious and then it’s about sharing the brand, sharing your message, and just using those platforms. The platforms that you have right now and the ones that are going to come in a few years.

The one thing that will remain relevant is your brand. And that’s why people are surprised when in my mentoring sessions or when we do an audit or something like that, they expect to see techniques and tactics like, “Oh, do that. Do these ads and run this and put this budget.” It’s going to happen, but later on. The most important part is who you are as a business owner and then who you are as a business, what your brand is about, what is your value, are you working towards building this brand? And there’s a lot that goes into that. But basically I would say that that’s one of the main things. And then everything else is just about tactics, platforms, algorithms, budgeting and things like that and fine-tuning all that.

Chris: Yeah, but one of the things that I think is a common, I’m going to say, misperception with small business owners like the one you just said is that, “Hey, I’ve got enough with my word of mouth.” And one of the things that I try to help people understand is things like Google, when they recommend you, that’s digital word of mouth. Google’s recommending you just like a person would be recommending you. If you’ve got natural language search and things like that and someone’s asking you, “Hey, who’s the best at X?” And the AI recommends you, this is digital word of mouth and it’s all based on these human interactions. So one of the things I think would be good is just give us the landscape of when you talk about digital word of mouth and you’re trying to help somebody understand how to leverage this ecosystem, what are some of the things that you say to help give them that “aha” moment?

Ines: I mean, it all builds up over time depending on how aware is the business owner that I have in front of me. Some people are fully aware that reviews and referrals and digital reviews and referrals are really definitely key, but some of them are not there yet. Although it’s crystal clear that you can’t be in business nowadays without taking care of your online presence. Your online, I want to say, digital assets. That’s your website, your social media accounts, all those things. But then I build it over time depending on who I have in front of me. But it’s really different.

I remember there was a company, it was a roofing company and then one of the things that I focused on is building their online reviews but not just get those reviews. It’s building a system so you can systematically keep and consistently keep having those reviews coming in and it can’t be just you as the business owner. You need to educate your team and involve them and engage them so they know what’s happening. And then I had this meeting with this business owner and then he was totally convinced and he wanted to do it and he was ready, but then when we met in the follow-up meeting about that, it didn’t work and it turns out his sales team, it was a roofing company, and people on the job site didn’t understand why they need to do that, and how is that even important? We’ve got the job done, we did it right, the customer is happy and that’s it.

I really take it as far as it needs to be to get those things done, and I took it as far as to have them in a call, the salespeople, although it’s not even supposed to be part of the program. As an agency, you’re not supposed to do that, but I have had them on a call and I explained to them, had a little PowerPoint with this is what the competition is doing, this is why this is important. Your manager or boss or the owner is not just asking to give you more tasks or add more stuff on your plate. It’s necessary for the business to strive, to even survive sometimes and for you guys to have your jobs in the future because the market, it’s not just you, even though this is a very successful company. And so it’s sometimes things like that. It’s not just the business owners, the team. And I try to go as far as I can to get those things done.

How reviews start at the very beginning of an experience

Chris: Well it sounds like in order to get this digital word of mouth flywheel turning, there’s some anchors that you have to set up. So let’s take a local company that already has a website, that has Facebook only as their social media channel, and what are you going to do to say, “Okay, great, let’s get all of your pillars set up so that we can really drive growth.” Because ultimately the things that I think we should chat about is one, local search, two, I think online reviews, responding to potentially negative ones, and how important that is, and then acquiring new ones. And then any of the other loyalty growth things where you’re getting email addresses and phone numbers and text messaging and things like that. What are some of the pillars that need to get set up for that small business that really just has a website that they really don’t use very well. It’s an online brochure and just a Facebook.

Ines: So there are different things in my experience that need to be done. First of all, like I said, you need to be aware that this is important, both the digital word of mouth and the reviews, but most importantly, the process doesn’t start when you ask for the review. It starts when you start doing the job. Let’s take the example of a roofing company. The moment your team starts working on the homeowner’s roof and then you put your sign on the yard or whatever, this is when the reviews process starts because now you’re building this customer experience. You are building the ground, if you will, for you to have a “yes” when you ask for a review. It doesn’t start after the job. It starts from the very beginning.

And that’s why, again, I take my work so really personally that I go in job sites. Again as a marketer, you’re not supposed to just because I believe that, let’s again, stick to the simple example of a roofing company. Your job site is actually a local marketing campaign. This is how you need to look at it without overdoing it obviously, but then this is how you need to look at it, the way your guys look, the way your truck is branded, the way if ever you put a yard sign, how many you put of those, and then if you have a catchall, if you know a little bit about the roofing business, then you have all those nails falling, those things, these little details, they matter because you can do an amazing job and then you forget this one little nail on the floor and then you have this tire or whatever happens to the homeowner or your neighbor, and then all the great work you’ve done is gone all of a sudden just because of this little thing.

So I don’t start with the techniques again, because these are very well known and I’m going to touch base on those, but I start with the, I want to say the root cause, where the very first steps in the process because if you get those right, and then everything else is just simple. For instance, you can equip your team on the field with apps, so it’s easy for them to ask for the review. They’re trained, they know what to say. You can have templates for the reviews and then have the homeowner customize, make it easy for them, as easy, as seamless as possible. Pick the right moment because if you leave, you ask for the review after a few days or weeks, I mean, you can still get it 100%, but then the energy and the excitement are gone. It’s probably the return, the answer rate is going to be lower.

So the techniques are there, the strategy is there, but again, it starts with preparing the ground for that. It’s not just about the techniques. Definitely not. The tools are there. It’s no secret to anyone. But then the hardest part is making sure that the customer experience, it’s there, you’ve succeeded in that. Then everything else is just easy. So —

Chris: In your mind, do reviews influence local search results?

Ines: Oh, absolutely. There are so many studies online that show that people... I believe I read in one of the articles a couple of weeks ago that more than 70% of people Google the company, look at the reviews before visiting a store. This is how crazy this thing is. But then there are other statistics where I believe one out of two local businesses didn’t claim their Google business profile, which is crazy. So we have this disparity. Again, that’s why education is really, really key and being aware that these things need to be done and then the tools are there, they’re accessible. A lot of the tools are not even expensive. So again, it’s not about the tools.

Using AI as a tool to align your brand

Chris: Yeah. Well, it sounds to me like one of the big pillars is this customer reviews program process, not just deciding what sites to go get reviews on and what technology to use, but that entire program of how you orchestrate everything to get somebody to say yes, to leave a positive review. So I’d say that’s at least one of the big ones. What would you say would be another pillar in the digital marketing arsenal that you really need to have as a small business owner?

Ines: I think content is a big deal, especially with AI. It’s shifting, it’s changing, and we’ve seen a huge adoption of ChatGPT last year, which is definitely not everything about AI, but that’s a shift in perception for small businesses. Now they get to use AI directly, they get to interact with it. It’s definitely, even though ChatGPT is an amazing tool, but in my humble opinion, we just scratched the surface. And that’s just amazing because like I said, it shifted the business owner’s perception and now they get to see firsthand what AI looks like and how it can help their businesses. So we have all in the back of our minds, this fear of what can AI do. The worst possible scenario, but now we get to learn firsthand and see what can you do with AI. So content is definitely a big deal now because it’s becoming easier and easier to create content. This is becoming a challenge because now-

Chris: It’s been really hard for a long time.

Ines: Yes, but then now everybody can create content. And the issue with that is you cannot just copy paste stuff that you get from ChatGPT and just post it online and assume that this is going to work. You still need to have this personal touch. Again, the branding, the story, everything else that I talked about now is very, very important. It’s not about using... Again, the tools are important and that’s why I always get back to the mindset. The tools are there, but you need to know how to use them. You can’t just copy paste. No matter how good is the prompt you’re going to give to the tool, you still need to add this touch that comes from your experience. The human touch and Google is not very clear until now about whether they like or they don’t like AI-generated content. But long story short, like I said, there are things that don’t change over time regardless of the updates, the algorithms and stuff like that. If your content is good, if it helps your users, if it comes from real experience and expertise, then regardless of-

Chris: How it was generated.

Ines: Yeah, regardless how it’s generated or if Google likes or other search engines like AI-generated content or not images or not, if it adds value, if it aligns your brand and adds value to your customers, then this is simply good content. Obviously there’s more into that, but that’s basically the main thing.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, Google cares about serving the user’s intent. Whatever they intended, they’re trying to understand what the searcher is intending and to deliver results that will help them solve that query so they can sell more ads so that they can actually drive more results so they can get more adoption to the search engine —

Ines: They’re a business.

Chris: — and get people to follow their rules.

Ines: Absolutely, they’re a business too. And then going back to the content thing, when you add to that the social proof component and going back to this reviews thing and then it all adds up, obviously this is oversimplified for the sake of the show, but definitely if you add the social proof plus the content. And when I say social proof, I’m talking about reviews, I’m talking about also stories, customer stories, how your product or your service changed or helped your customers in whatever given way, all of those combined, they will help you with the conversions because at the end of the day, all small business owners that come to me, they are looking for growth. They’re trying to increase their phone calls, incoming calls, their customer base. It’s all about growth.

The power of leaving your comfort zone

Chris: I think one of the things when it comes to content that is, if you think about a buyer’s journey, there’s the education phase, maybe the solutions that they start looking for and then they pick one. And super simplified buyer’s journey, but one of the things that I think is really, really important about the content that you’re talking about is that social proof content, which is further down the buyer’s journey, when they’re actually looking at solutions, is those case studies, those are things that are like, “Here is proof that somebody that had a similar problem that we helped them solve that problem, and here’s what happened.”

And the framework I like to use for that is identity. What are we talking about? The problem or the challenge, what were they facing? What was the solution that was used? And then what was the value? And those frameworks for that content really, really matter because if you are a roofing company and somebody is looking for reviews and you have that on your website, someone’s going to go, “Well, somebody spent a lot of time writing this out. I actually have heard of this company.” And some people will call and will call that a reference. So that social proof, where the content and the social proof really match up is really with case studies and testimonials.

Ines: Yes, absolutely. And there are so many ways to get the word out. It’s, like I said, basic stuff. It’s reviews, it’s customer stories. I think it matters a lot so people can relate depending on the demographics and where you are in the country because depending on the weather. It’s really specific to where you are in the country, but basically these things add up. Clarity in the content, for instance, I’ve seen to stick again to the roofing companies example, companies with just one page website. One page websites are great, created by the business owner, which is amazing. But then when you want to scale, you take your business to the next level, you can’t stick with that. You need to have more. You need to have more.

And this is one of the companies that said, “Oh, we’re good. We have a lot of referrals coming,” which is amazing. But then they were also aware that they can’t only rely on that. They were ready to scale and then to take it to the next level. And you just can’t rely on that only. And it’s basically staying in your comfort zone because somehow this is your comfort zone. This is how you’ve been having clients since forever, but now you get to step to the next level to stay relevant and have the steady flow of leads. There’s also another aspect that maybe we don’t talk too much about, which is talent retention. If your team, especially Gen Z’s and new hire, they see that you’re using old techniques, old software, you know what I mean?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Ines: It is going to be hard for you to keep them and retain them and help your business. And then they’re going to be a huge turnover. So there’s a lot into that. It’s not just the approach, at least how I see it. It starts with your website. Probably your Google business profile or your Yelp page, whatever it might be, but it goes way beyond than that. That’s why I gave you the example earlier of the webinar. Why would you as a marketer do that and go out of your way and do that? Because I know that the company needed that and that the business owner was struggling. He saw and he knew deep in his heart that’s what he needed, but then his team was not helping. And then that’s why I was like, “Okay, maybe if a third party, which is me, out of the company, came in and said, ’Okay guys, you guys need that. This is really key. This is important. This is why you need it for you, for the business.’” And then it helped. And I was very happy about that.

Where real life meets digital life

Chris: I mean, I think random acts of marketing are rampant in a lot of small businesses like, “Well, we tried a campaign and it didn’t work.” Or “We tried a website and it didn’t work. We ran ads before and it didn’t work.” Talk to me about this. Something that I’m really picking up on is you’ve got the strategy, which has a lot to do with the people aspect and how things come to life in your business, and then you’ve got the way that they show up digitally and there’s this interplay in between the two. So maybe talk to us a little bit about the blending of those two worlds, of the people element and the actual tactics themselves and the tools, because that’s really, I’d say, your secret sauce is this flywheel of getting this integrated marketing to come together to make it a part of your business.

Ines: That is a great, great question. I love this question. So I like to talk about it as a digital divide if you want. So especially for small businesses, you go through your day and then they know how to run their business, but they forget that they have a digital twin, if you will. People who do 3D mapping and things like that, they’re probably going to understand what I’m talking about. You have a digital twin that’s basically the copy, if you will, of your business online, your digital version, if you will, of your website. And then sometimes, and really often I see that in small businesses, the business itself runs in a certain way and then online it’s a completely different animal. They can be very good at what they’re doing in real life. And then online there’s nothing that reflects that.

And it is sometimes challenging to connect those two. And like I said, it’s a process. I don’t want to force anything. But then when you educate people and then you show them that this is absolutely in your best interest to overcome the fears, because sometimes it’s about fears. For instance, I met with a lot of mentees that don’t want to be in front of the camera. They’re really shy. I mean, you can have them do anything but not show their faces in the camera. And then it goes now, it’s not even about web marketing or digital marketing or even marketing at all. It’s more about personal development for that business owner. Because now I’m not only, I jumped from the conversation where we started talking about digital marketing and now we’re talking about personal development and how you want to show up for the business, how you want to put your face on the business. And then it comes with a lot of responsibility.

And then I’m happy that I succeeded in helping a lot of business owners start creating content and just talk about what they do daily because a lot of them think that you need to have some special sauce or skills or you’re born with it to be able to be comfortable speaking in front of a camera. It is scary for everybody. Being watched, it’s scary for everybody. But now when you’re convinced and you know that this is you showing up for your business, this is one of the ways you need to show up for the business, then it starts making sense and they start overcoming this mental barrier of, “Okay, I’m hiding behind my logo.” So that’s the thing. A lot of people nowadays, they don’t want to work with logos anymore. People want to work with people. And that’s why I really encourage business owners to share their stories. Why did you start this business?

And they open up in our sessions when we talk about, and I ask these questions, why did you start this business in the first place? And then what gets you here? And then they remember where they started the journey and why they’re here. And then we start breaking those barriers bit by bit. And then they realize that it’s just about talking what you already do daily. You know the topics. You know the questions that your customers ask. You have the knowledge — you’re doing this day in and day out. For some reason, they think that they’re not good enough to do that. So it goes way beyond sometimes just digital marketing. So I need to go help them get over this obstacle. And then the sky is the limit when they succeed in doing the first short video, the second, the third, and then they have their team involved as well.

And then that’s just one of the easy ways, I want to say, to connect those two, this real version of the business and the digital version of the business. It’s also, I want to go back to the education and involving your team as well is about educating yourself as a small business owner, but also your team. And more and more, especially the Gen Z and the coming generations, they want to be educated. They want to grow with the business. So if you are just keeping this divide because you’re comfortable, as you have those referrals coming in and you’re in business and you’re comfortable with what happens, then over time, you’re not going to stay relevant anymore. So you need to build that, involve them. And I had one of my clients discover that they had a talent in the team. One of their team members is actually capable of creating content better than a social media manager. He was really talented. He enjoyed that, and all of a sudden, you couldn’t stop him from creating content anymore.

Chris: That’s amazing.

Ines: It’s about people. Long story short, it is about people. Then the tools are there, like I said, they’re accessible to everyone. It’s about creating content, having this in the back of your mind. We have this real version, we are in the real world, but now we have people that are watching us online. We need to show them who we are, what we stand for, our work, our values, and then it creates content, creates customer stories, it creates reviews, it creates stories, it creates short videos, short, you name it. The formats that are available today or tomorrow, it doesn’t matter. It’s, again, about the mindset. We need to show up for our potential customers that need our help online. It’s our duty to let them know that we are here, especially...

So one of the ways I pick my clients is, and maybe some people are going to hate me for that, but that’s how I do it, I want to work with winners, with people that are good at what they’re doing. If you are not good at what you’re doing and you’re not putting the work to improve, I can be the best marketer in the world, but I won’t be able to help you. That’s why it’s about, I go back always to the foundations. If you’re good at what you’re doing, let’s say you have 10 small reviews, but they’re positive. And when I read those reviews, I know that there’s value in there, that it’s a matter about scaling. It’s about showing you the way. You know what I mean?

Chris: Oh yeah.

Ines: If you’re not good, then you need to start there. Do not even start spending money on ads or anything. You’re going to just scale chaos. That’s what you’re going to do. Then start at the very beginning if that makes a little bit of sense.

Chris: Makes a lot of sense. I think anytime someone goes from not doing marketing to trying to do marketing and bringing in experts, you discover more about the business that’s wrong with it than you may have anticipated.

Ines: That’s exactly what I do.

Chris: And I think that that’s a really key insight because the random acts of marketing thing, if you didn’t bring somebody who can help you integrate a marketing playbook, not just marketing tactics, but a marketing playbook, a really good person like yourself will be able to unpack exactly what’s going on with the business because you’re going to create a map. In order to do marketing, you got to know what’s your destination, where are you today, and what’s the map to evolve?

Ines: Where you’re starting from, yes.

Common myths in digital marketing

Chris: So maybe talk to us a little bit about some of the objections that you commonly get or the myths like marketing’s too expensive. I like the one that you talked about, which is that “I shouldn’t be the face of my business” kind of things. What are some of these other myths and how you address them that you encounter on a regular basis with small business owners?

Ines: Oh, so there was one myth, I really want to talk about this one. It was about, so TikTok, when TikTok started, a lot of people thought that was for kids. That’s what it was. It was for kid’s dances and stuff like that, and then it was not. It was just the very beginning. And then when I was talking to people, if you are one of the first in this platform, what do you have to lose? If you’re already creating content, it’s just repurposing it. And then you get to play with this platform and see where this is going to take you, especially if the content is there. It’s about repurposing it. Basically you were reaching 10,000 people, let’s say, just for the sake of the example, a month on your other platforms, and now you’re adding this new platform and turns out, and as we all know it’s not just for kids. It’s absolutely not for kids.

And I had the same experience, I believe it was in 2008. In one of my first workshops, back then I believe there was just the Facebook accounts, no Facebook pages, just the Facebook profiles. Monetization didn’t even start. There’s no ads. Remember, this is when we used to post “Good morning,” and then you have a little coffee and then everybody, you have hundreds of, “Oh, good morning,” and everybody’s happy and emojis and stuff like that. And the reach was 100% back then. Now it’s nothing close to that. But basically then when I was talking, and these are big companies and I was saying, “This is going to be the future. You need to be there.” And keep in mind, this is when people in companies to spend on TV, on flyers, brochures, printing. That was the mindset then.

And then I was like, “This is the future. You need to shift a little bit of your budget and ad spend to that.” And then it was like, “No, we’re doing ads, we’re doing TV. It’s working very well. We don’t need it. This is just for kids. It’s going to go away in a few years.” And the rest is history. So that’s just some of myths, if you want. That’s in the past. But now the kind of things that I’m getting, again, this is the referral thing, and “We have already, people know us. We’ve been around for so long,” because I work with small businesses, but well-established businesses. “We’ve been around for so long and we have word of mouth referrals,” and stuff like that. Or there’s this one, “We never get a client from our website. We never got a client from our social media. We just keep posting. There’s no engagement. And I don’t know why we will spend or invest in that.”

But the person is in the call and booked the call because they know they need to do something about it. So that’s the conversation that we had. So if you have a truck, you’re not taking care of it, you’re not doing anything, don’t expect it to work when you need it. Your website’s not bringing anything because you’re not paying attention to it. You have this very old website that you built when you started the company. There’s no way this is going to convert. People are finding you with what we call branded keywords. That’s your company name plus location or just your company name. These are people who know you. This is not new blood. This is not new companies, a new business or potential customers. So it doesn’t work for a reason.

It’s just common sense. So there are a lot of those things. Or “It’s too expensive.” That’s another one. Or I had clients coming that had bad experiences with agencies, which is, I mean, I really hate it when someone comes and tells me, “Oh, I worked with this company and then they didn’t do nothing.” That comes back a lot. And then because if you don’t do nothing as an agency, then you’re not just hurting your reputation, you’re hurting the entire industry. And then there’s another additional effort for me to explain that just like yourself, there are bad businesses as well. If you’re doing the things that you have to do for your customers and you’re a good whatever company, there are bad companies as well. And that’s part of doing business. I hope you learned a lot from this experience for you to determine who are you talking to. Are you talking to a potential partner, good partner, or are you talking to someone that is just after your business and your marketing dollars? So there’s a lot that I’m hearing every week with mentoring business owners and having them as a client.

Pillars of successful digital marketing

Chris: Those are really good, that social media is for kids and it’ll go away soon, that it’s too expensive, all of the ones that you’re mentioning. One of the things that I think is really, really one that I hear often is small business owners say things like, “This is just a trend. It will just pass.” The random acts of marketing. “We tried it before and it didn’t work.” I think one of the things that is really interesting though is you’ve got these pillars that we talked about that you need... I want to revisit the pillars because I think that one of the ones where you talked about social proof as a pillar, and that is way more integrated, not just the tools, but it’s the integrated way is that it’s a part of your business to get the proof —

Ines: 100%.

Chris: — to come out in content and across your social media channels. Another one, I think the website and probably your citations and your local search stuff. I want to talk about that for a second because one of the other myths is that local businesses go, “I don’t do digital marketing because word of mouth is good enough, and all of these followers that I get are outside of my area.” So I think one of the things to talk about a little bit is not only why the social media piece matters, but the website and your local search anchor points. Talk about those for a second and why those are really important.

Ines: So for local businesses, the myth is that, like you said, “We don’t need digital marketing. We don’t need to do... Besides the reviews, people are now educated enough to know that you have to have those reviews to show on the map, but then a lot of times that’s it. That’s basically it, which is really, really basic. And then they’re like you said, ”We’re not getting anything from our social media. We’re not getting anything out of Google or just some people who are finding us, but we have our regular customers,“ and things like that. And they take it for granted. That’s the thing. ”We’re here today, we’re going to stay like that forever." And they take it for granted. Well, I mean the pandemic showed us that nothing should be taken for granted and all of a sudden a lot changed.

But basically, I want to talk about some of the pillars, like you said, for instance, your Google business profile, it’s a free resource. It is so easy to set up. It just takes a few minutes of your time. I know that small businesses, they’re already wearing so many hats and they already have a lot on their plates also. We need to have empathy for that and not just be like, “Hey, you absolutely need to do that.” Because again, the people component, the personal component is really, really important. And that’s how I’m able to be successful in what I’m doing is, again, it’s not just about tactics and strategies, not even strategies, because all of those are available and they’re no secret to no one. Everybody, every marketer out there knows that if you’re a local business, you need to have a decent Google business profile. This is a given. You need to have reviews, you need to keep it alive, to update it, all those things-

Chris: Images, hours, all that.

Ines: You don’t need me to tell you that. You just need to Google a couple of keywords and then you know you have everything. You don’t need me for that. But what you need me for is to create systems to change your mindset, to make sure that you’re not the only one, the only, I want to say engine in your company, growth engine in your company. And this is really exhausting. Being myself, a small business owner. This is really exhausting when it’s just you and everybody else is not involved, your team is not involved. And there is a topic. I mean, this is probably not the most important thing for this show, but this is a very important topic that a lot, a lot of people talk about, which is mental health for small business owners. It’s not like a buzzword or anything, but this is real. This is real. If you have some time, just Google it. There are studies that show that more than 50% of business owners, small business owners specifically deal with mental health issues. And I’m talking about anxieties, insomnia, things like that.

So again, the personal aspect is really important to you. It’s important for you to know who you have in front of you, so you’re not asking too much and all of a sudden it is too much to ask for, and then you’re not going to do anything about it, but you need to have empathy. Empathy is really, really key. And there was a movement, somehow, people who want to become entrepreneur, they dream about that. They dream of becoming their own bosses and freedom and all those things, which is amazing, right?

Chris: Yep.

Ines: But then you need to know that it comes with a lot of responsibilities, a lot of stress, because all of a sudden you can’t just leave work at work, you take work with you at home. I mean, this is really a huge topic and we can probably talk about it another day, but definitely what I’m saying is there’s a personal approach to what I’m doing. And then all those presences, the Google business profile, the Yelp page, the Nextdoor, the expertise, the BBB, all those things, they matter, they’re important. But again, it’s not about tactics and just throwing URLs at people. “Oh, do this, do that. Oh, spend it.” Or packaged types of strategies, cookie-cutter type of strategies, it doesn’t work. We’ve seen it over and over and over again. It doesn’t work. Every business is unique and especially if you’re working with small businesses. Every small business is unique and impacted directly by the business owner personality and background.

Chris: So true.

Ines: It is. It is like that. So you cannot just throw... We know that as a small business owner, local business owner, you need to have the Google business profile, a decent website. You need to have reviews, landing pages for your services. You need to have your phone number a certain number of times to have call-to-actions. It needs to be clickable on mobile and not just have the phone number. Basic things like that, it needs to be mobile friendly. So many things that you can find really everywhere. You don’t need me to tell you that, but it’s about a mindset. For instance, I’m having an event in a few days and I’m showing business owners how to audit their online presence, as simple as that. I’m not giving you tactics, I’m not giving you tools. I’m giving you evergreen knowledge, which is even more important for you to acquire them. Just knowing what is the last tool or whatever, because tomorrow’s going to be another tool. You need to have the knowledge and the education that you need to know digital marketing as a business owner.

You might be surprised because I also run an agency and then I love to work with educated business owners because now we get to have those interesting conversations. We get had to strategize together. You understand the value that I’m bringing to your business. And then also, you get to make well-informed decisions because you have this education and this knowledge. So it’s a more holistic approach and then more just tactics and that change over time anyways. I also want to work, when it’s possible, with the team because like I said, it’s really exhausting when it’s just you driving the growth and everything. And I try to help them delegate, “Okay, you cannot create content? No problem. Where in your business can we create content? Who can create content?” Just little pieces and then it adds up, and then all of a sudden, it was what was impossible a few weeks ago for them to have content, steady stream of content for their social media, for instance, now it is so easy. When it was hard for them to get the stories, the customer stories, now it’s easy. And we create a process.

So they have this steady flow of content. And then like you talked about earlier about the digital divide between the real version of the business, I want to say, and the digital version, that helps a lot with creating content that is quality content. And then this is not part of what I do for small business owners, but probably in the future, we’re going to have a digital twin in the metaverse. It is possible it might come sooner than we think. And then what are you going to do then? You’re going to be overwhelmed again, and you feel like, “Oh my God, this is the next new thing. This is another new thing. This is something else that I need to learn on top of what I already have going on.” That’s why it’s about the mindset.

I used to teach MBA classes several years ago and I taught digital transformation and my students back then were not small business owners because they couldn’t afford the MBA thing, fees and stuff, but it was CEOs. And you would be surprised how both CEOs and small business owners I’m talking to have the same issues. Okay, what is the next big thing for the business? What is the next big technology that’s going to help me drive growth? There’s no one thing. And over time we learn that you cannot predict exactly. We just can’t know the trends. But you need to be equipped with the right mindset to be educated, to educate yourself, educate your team, be curious, adapt, fail fast, which is perfectly fine. Be fine with failing.

And that’s what we were talking about when we said, “Okay, we did the random acts of marketing and it didn’t work.” It’s okay. It doesn’t mean that marketing doesn’t work or you’re not good at it. It just means that what you did didn’t work. Don’t put meaning where there’s no meaning. It didn’t work, let’s try something else. We’re cool with that. So again, it’s a lot about mindset. You would be surprised that marketing is not about tactics and tools. And again, it’s everywhere. This is how my approach may be a little bit different.

Being mindful of the customer experience

Chris: Yeah, I think something I talked about recently is how marketing is really everywhere in the business and there’s things that you’re doing that are imprinting on people. That experience that they’re having, they’ll either carry a good one with them and share it in all the places that you can share now, and it’ll be good or they don’t share it all, which is just as bad as sharing something bad, in my opinion. So one of the things that I’d like to talk about, the work that you just talked about, we talked about these pillars, the work that we just talked about should yield these growth outcomes. And one of the things that we like to talk about is these outcomes as it relates to increasing the average ticket. So get more from the sales you’re already getting. Increasing traffic to your website or your business, repeat business. So talk to us a little bit about how some of this work can generate even more repeat business.

Ines: So you mentioned traffic. So traffic is changing because of all that’s happening with Google and with other search engines as well. It’s not just about traffic anymore because for some keywords, some industries, traffic is going to change, it’s going to decrease, and it’s scaring a lot of people in the marketing industry and also a lot of business owners that rely on that. Now it is changing because the AI is here and then it’s already going to be giving the answers right on the SERP on the search engine result page. So I don’t need to click anymore. It is very convenient for me as a user, not have to click and open 10 tabs to get my information on my browser. I got the information right there immediately. But then on the other hand, there’s less traffic, potentially less traffic, depending on the query, depending on the industry, but basically potentially less traffic for the website.

But on the other hand, if you are optimizing the website for longer tail keywords, specific keywords, specific questions, then that can be even better for you because now you’re not getting some, not random but not unqualified, let’s say, traffic. People that are not really close to the decision-making. They are very far in the decision-making process or in the sales funnel. Now you’re having people who are really specific about what they want and they’re looking for specific information and then they’re closer to converting for you. And again, how are you going to get those questions and how are you going to get those long tail keywords? Obviously, there are tools. I’m not going to do any advertising for those tools, but there are tools out there. But most importantly, you already have an idea about those if you look in your business, if you talk to your customers, because this is where this is coming from. It’s not just from Google, it’s from real life.

So again, the way we’re doing marketing is changing. There are different tools and different ways, and with AI changing a lot of things and making things easier and putting more tools in the hands of business owners. But again, it’s about authenticity. It’s about going back to the roots, to your customers, to your customer’s needs. So I think this is really important. And like I said earlier, remember when we talked about reviews and generating those reviews? So the repeat business is just a consequence of treating well your customers, of being mindful of the customer experience. And then it’s just about creating systems and putting systems in place. And it’s about relationships, I want to say. It’s really about building relationships with your customers and not really being in the transactional aspects of business. Business is about people. This is what it is. It’s not about tools or tactics or software or whatever. These are just tools. It’s about people. If you are able to build digitally, not just in person but digitally because that’s scalable, you build digitally a good relationship with your customer, then everything else is just going to be a consequence.

Chris: Well, I think one of the things that’s interesting is a restaurant, people eat three times a day and sometimes more or less, but a roof, you get every 20 or 30 years. So a repeat business playbook is going to be really different between something that can happen multiple times a month or week even versus something that happens... So what are some of the things that you install in businesses to get that repeat business for both sides of that coin where you got a really long in-between moment and then you have the stuff that happens pretty regularly.

Ines: So the customer experience, the user experience, if we talk about the digital presence, the user experience and how seamless it is to order, how seamless to get the service and how available you are, this is one of the most important things. Let me give you an example. I had one of my customers asking, “Oh, should we have a chatbot on our website? Should we have that or should we just have a WhatsApp? What should we have because we want to capture people real-time.” And I was like, “These are the different options depending on your website.” And we talked about the technicalities of doing this, but then I asked just one little question and they knew that they’re not ready. “Do you have someone that will be ready to answer in real-time? If I’m a potential customer and I’m there, “I’m ready to buy, I’m interested, can you get back to me? How long would it take you or to get back to me or your team or whatever?”

If it’s not a few minutes, then I’m gone. That’s what it is. Then, “Are you ready?” And then they knew that they’re not ready for that at all. Again, if you add a technique or whatever, you need to be to be able to deliver on that. You need to be able to give a good user experience. Whether you’re going to have a repeat business after a few weeks or a few years or whatever, you need to have a good experience because people don’t forget good experiences. They obviously remember more the bad experiences, but they don’t forget good experiences. If the repeat business is going to happen, like for the roofing, after 20 years or 30 years, there are other opportunities. Then there’s the annual, the checkups that you do, there’s referral, there are so many ways to get repeat business, not just from them. You can turn them into a hub for their community.

And that’s why earlier I talked about the job sites, to stick to the roofers’ example, your job site, it’s an opportunity for you to have a local marketing campaign. You’re not just servicing this business, you’re not just doing this job site. You’re preparing for the next job sites. How your people show up. Even little things, how clean they are, how they’re greeting the customer, how they’re paying attention, how they show they care about the flowers, things like that. People pay attention. This is their home. They pay attention to that and they remember people who care.

So caring, I think, is really important and in the user experience, it needs to show on your website and little things just like your website speed for instance, just to get a little bit technical, your website speed. If it takes a few seconds for your website to load on mobile, then you’re already losing business. Period. You’re already losing business no matter what content you’re going to have in there, how many reviews, how many... People are not going to even see those. We’re impatient nowadays. We don’t want to wait. It’s easier for us to go and change the keywords or do whatever, rather than wait for your page to load and you already have lost the customer. It’s already a bad user experience right there from the get-go.

The future of digital marketing

Chris: Yeah. Well one of the things that you have made really clear in this conversation is you need to build complete machines if you’re going to be in a business. You can’t just install a campaign and be like, “That’s going to solve things.”

Ines: Expect it to... Yes.

Chris: You have to finish the swing on how are you to go from idea to operationally ready to repeatable, right?

Ines: Exactly.

Chris: And I love that you called that out. I think you’ve shared a lot of incredible insights with us, but as we kinda wrap up, I just want to know what’s maybe one trend in digital marketing that you think is going to shape the industry over the next five years and what business owners can do today to prepare?

Ines: Oh, AI, 100%. That’s absolutely AI and I’m very happy that last year shifted the public perception of AI because now really, we opened the door to so many tools that are being built as we speak right now. And so a lot of investment is going to that as well. So we will really be surprised in the next months, few years also, maybe not even five years, maybe less, with the tools that are going to be in the market, especially with the open source AI, because now it’s not just a big boys type of game. Now anybody can download. They can find a way to... When you put those technologies in the hands of people worldwide, you’ll be surprised. I mean, history showed us that so many times and now we’d be surprised with the use cases, especially for AI.

In my humble opinion on the future, it’s not just going to be about using those tools and those software. It’s going to be about building your own AI. And maybe every business will end up having their own AI because the technology is going to be hopefully so easy and so accessible that you can build your own agents, your own AI to serve your own specific needs, but then for you to get there, and that’s why I always get back to the education, to the mindset, to those things, you need to have the right mindset and you need to be ready for that. If you are scared, if you’re worried, or if you’re too comfortable in where you are in the business today, then there’s no way you’re going to be ready for that. And chances are you’re not going to be relevant, not as a business, not as a business owner, not as an employer as well. So I think AI is really the next big thing.

Chris: I think one of the things that would be really interesting for small business owners to do is to go to your friendly neighborhood AI tool, let’s just say Chat GPT and say, “Hey, tell me about my business.” And see how little shows up. And it’s really, really interesting that if you ask somebody after they build a complete machine a couple of years later say, “Tell me about my business,” and see how much more can be there. And that is a real benchmark moment that I think AI can help people understand how well they’re doing. That is information that’s available about their business and letting people know about it. It’s a really interesting and practical way.

Ines: Absolutely. It’s a mirror that shows you where you are and how far you want to go and the sky is the limit. I’m really excited about this technology.

Rapid-fire questions

Chris: Yeah, good. Well, I have some rapid-fire questions for you.

Ines: All right, I’ll try to be ready.

Chris: What’s one book that’s greatly influenced your thinking?

Ines: The 4-Hour Week would be one of them, just because it shifted my perspective on how you manage time and how you can leverage so many other things. Let me give you an example. I waited several years to have an executive assistant for no reason. I just deprived myself from having additional help or you can call it whatever you want, virtual assistant, and a lot of business owners would need that and will really, really benefit from that. And you’re just blocking yourself for no reason. You can afford it, but you think you’re not ready for some reason. So that book, I read it several times from different angles and then I felt like I didn’t read one book, but three or four at the same time. There are a lot obviously, but that was one of them.

Chris: Yeah, the 4-Hour Work Week with Tim Ferriss. The guy sitting right over there is actually featured as one of the letters in the back of the book.

Ines: Okay.

Chris: Oh yeah.

Ines: Good to know.

Chris: Well, what’s the most unusual skill that you possess that people might not know about?

Ines: Dreaming maybe? Dreaming, imagination. Yep.

Chris: I love it. Well, maybe describe digital marketing in three words.

Ines: Oh, that’s a tough one. Come on. That’s a tough one. Can I do four?

Chris: Sure.

Ines: Expand your real you. Expand digitally, your real you.

Chris: I love it. What’s one app that you can’t live without?

Ines: There are so many nowadays. Gmail, just because of... Yeah, keep it simple.

Chris: I would say, yeah. Well, what’s your biggest passion outside of work?

Ines: Pets. I love pets.

Chris: Okay.

Ines: That’s therapeutic. I love pets. I love caring about them. I love pets.

Chris: Okay. Dog? Cat?

Ines: Cat. I’m a cat person. Huge cat person.

Chris: There you go. What’s your favorite city for food adventures?

Ines: LA, 100%.

Chris: All right. If you could be transported to any city in the world, where would you go today?

Ines: I would go to a place that I never visited. I would go to Mumbai. I never was there. I spoke virtually in an event in India, but I was never there. I loved the colorful aspect of it, so I’m curious and I really want to be there and taste how things smell, the food and all those things.

Chris: Yeah, experience it.

Ines: I told you I’m a dreamer.

Chris: I love it. All right, we’ll circle back. What’s your all-time favorite motivational quote?

Ines: Keep your fans close and keep your enemies closer.

Chris: Okay.

Ines: I learned this the hard way because I’m a giver. That’s my nature. I’m happy when I give to people, when I mentor. Even my team, I’m very happy when I see the spark in the eyes of the person I’m talking to or even in-person events, when I give something and I feel like I see this spark and I’m like, "Okay, they learned something. They just got a little “aha” moment or they realize that they can do it. This was not that hard. I love that. But because of that nature, I used to not pick to who I give and I used to also have the huge mistake of having high expectations from people. The moment I got rid of having expectations. And I just give because I love it. Whether you give it back or not, it doesn’t matter. I already have the benefit of giving. It’s so rewarding that I don’t need to expect anything in return. So that was very important for me.

Chris: All right. Well Ines, it was great to sit down and chat with you about digital marketing and mindset and everything small business. So I appreciate you spending some time with us in the studio.

Ines: Thank you. Thank you for having me. That was really interesting. Thank you. I loved it. Amazing experience.

Chris: Absolutely.

Ines: Thank you.