Season 03 Episode 17
Ryan Estis, Leadership expert and strategic advisor

Chris Allen: All right, well I’d like to welcome Ryan Estis to the hot seat. No, I’m just kidding. The really fun place we call The Entrepreneur’s Studio. Welcome.

Ryan Estis: Thanks, Chris. It’s really good to be here, man. I’ve been looking forward to this.

Chris: Yeah, glad to have you here. We had your dear old pal Mr. Josh Linkner on, and he was like, “You know, I think Ryan would be really great to have this conversation with.”

Ryan: I owe him one, so thanks, Josh.

Chris: I know.

Ryan: Yeah, he’s special. We’re good friends.

Chris: He’s good people.

Ryan: He really is. And he’s a talented entrepreneur. I’ve learned a lot working with him.

Chris: Absolutely. I think one of the things that was really great about that conversation with him is his perspective on people. And if you’re going to place bets on investments and the way that he thought about people, it’s a pretty remarkable way of doing business.

Human-centered leadership

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, he’s a people first or what I like to refer to as a human-centered leader.

Chris: I love it. Well, I want to touch on that with you today as well. And we live in a time when technologies change the way that we do business, but the human element really remains central to the success of a business. So Ryan, maybe talk to us about how you champion this human-centered approach in your work.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, I think we’re in an interesting time in business. There’s a unique paradox. I think what’s required to compete, win and grow share of market, which isn’t coming upon every leader or C-suite leader is challenging. And that challenge is demanding more from our people, our talent, contribution, thinking, discretionary effort, outcomes, performance. And that need is bumping up against this evolution and the needs and expectations of people. And so there’s the tension that exists. If you think about where we are today in the world of work, it just isn’t working. Employees are more disengaged, dissatisfied than they were at the height of the pandemic.

Chris: So true.

Ryan: Yeah, over 70% would suggest that they often feel overwhelmed, stressed and anxious. People aren’t happy at work and they’re not giving more, they’re giving less. And so our antidote and what I think about a lot and have devoted a lot of time to researching and writing and talking about, is this idea that human-centered leadership, it’s the path forward. And it’s prioritizing people back to the point you made about Josh. It’s putting humans at the center of everything we do. Their ideas, their values, their expressions and their experiences. And so it requires from the leader a bit of a long range view and maybe a shift in prioritization. And I think some additional skills and competency.

Chris: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. One of the things I think has been the most impactful watching some of my best leaders, is having the pulse of the team and seeing that there is a choice. And even recognizing this is a choice is really big, is that there’s results in front of us and we all know that we only cross the finish line as a team. We don’t cross the finish line alone. And you see a leader that has the choice to torque everybody to get there just a little bit faster and probably compromise some of the teamwork or to find to release valves, decompressions, things like that. And those are things when you have people at high levels of attention for long periods of time, you lose some of your best people. That’s some of the best leadership that I’ve seen is to have two things, the pulse of the team and have the awareness to say, “I have a choice. I can either torque or I can have some decompression.”

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of insight in that. So the pulse of the team is knowing people, maybe even down to the pulse of the individual and situational leadership. What inspires somebody? What motivates somebody? What moves somebody? What supports somebody at their place of highest need? How can I put that person in a position to become who they’re capable of being or help them get where they want to go a year from now, five years from now. And looking back on this 10 years from now, am I going to remember a deal that I did or a big client that we want, or am I going to really remember the impact I had on Lynn and her life and her family? Or am I going to remember the three years that David Holtz worked with me? But when he was ready to move on and I didn’t have a role, I helped him to the next thing and we’re still in touch and I see the wonderful and brilliant business he’s created and all the lives he’s impacted.

That’s what it’s about. And yes, torque can be effective. Fear and intimidation can get a short-term result. I mean, if you’re prioritizing your quarterly earnings and that stock price, man, you can drive that and squeeze that and cut into that. But is that the goal? And so back to human-centered, it does require a bit of a long range perspective. And so one of the ways we like to talk about this idea of momentum or torque is momentum through harmony. Are you being congruent to yourself? Are you being authentic? I mean, is this how you want to be remembered? Is this what you want to be known for? And does this serve the long range interests of what we’re doing? Because my idea is let’s leave it better than we found it, not squeeze it to get a number at the end of the quarter.

Chris: Absolutely. Well, I mean, I think as it relates to that human-centered leadership, how would you construct the framework of how people can think about this, so there’s just a frame of reference that people can have?

Leading yourself first

Ryan: So let’s do the frame in three concepts. So the first idea would be that human-centered leaders start with themselves. So it’s lead yourself first. Being a human-centered leader requires a lot of, you can use the word awareness, self-awareness. The idea is you’d want to be growing in humility and confidence at the same time. So competence is the foundation, but you’re building these... So it starts on the inside of you. Leadership is an inside out game. Human-centered leaders have a high degree of self-awareness. Their students, they’re constantly learning, iterating, getting better.

Second idea, part of the frame would be then connect in service. So we’ve all heard of servant leadership and it’s borrowed from that idea, but it really, leadership isn’t a job, it’s a responsibility. And it’s not about us, it’s about helping other people become who they’re capable of being. And that’s true for your customers, but it’s also true for your team. And then the third part of the frame would be the one we covered. We began with the end in mind, which is momentum through harmony, that it’s long range thinking. We want to be in congruence and part of my mission is to make the world of work a better place. The way we’re working isn’t working. We’re not in harmony right now. We’re in discord, disengagement and disconnections.

Chris: I love that.

Ryan: Thank you.

Chris: So play back to me the three bucket labels. You got the self-leadership.

Ryan: Yeah, lead yourself first, connect in service, momentum through harmony.

Chris: Okay. I love that. One of the coolest parts about that is if you think about people who are employed or you think about team members in our listeners’ businesses, they may not see themselves as leaders because they’re not leading people, but that leading yourself, every single person can do that and has a responsibility to do it.

Ryan: Yeah, look, I mean, at the end of the day, my whole career has been about selling. I started as an entry level salesperson. I mean, what do big companies do with their better salespeople? Move them up into management. So I became an accidental leader, but I love sales. I think it’s the greatest way to make a living. But think about those three ideas. It’s lead yourself first, stay a student, humility, ask questions. Selling is asking, not telling, it’s listening, not talking. So then the second thing, connect in service. Really be a steward to be in service of your customer. If that’s your focus, if it’s about helping the customer get where they want to go, it really becomes altruistic. It isn’t about you or your commission or your number, it’s about really being of service to somebody else. The best salespeople are really helping their customers make difficult decisions or solve complex problems. My success is your success. You’re a merchant that I’m doing business with, I want to see you shine .your growth is my goal.

And then the last piece is the congruence piece. It’s momentum through harmony. Harmony inside myself, harmony in consideration with my customers and the community I work in. And so I think those three ideas are pretty universal or applicable, whether you’re leading a business, a territory, a team, a family, a community, a nonprofit. And I think it’s just a shift in the way we’re thinking about it.

Chris: Well, tell me a little bit about where the spark for this really came from for you.

Ryan: Yeah, I left the job 15 years ago. I mean, I worked for a Fortune 500 company and then I went down this path of being a consultant and doing a lot of writing and speaking. And so speaking professionally as a key noter at conferences and doing workshops. And then Covid happened. And so I was paused. I mean, a big part of my body of work went away. It was the first time I was off the road for more than two weeks and it was the first time I wasn’t just on the treadmill at 12:00 doing. And that was very uncomfortable for me at first to sit with myself.

But through that reflection and introspection, at the time I happened to be writing a book, I was maybe three quarters of the way through the book and Covid happened. And so it was an opportunity for me to step back and look at all of it and started to ask bigger questions like, who am I becoming? What choices do I want to make now that I would be proud of a year from now? Am I saying what I really want to say in the book and why am I writing the book? Who’s it going to serve? And it was through that introspection and reflection that these ideas around human-centered and I think the framework that we just talked about, began to emerge. And so I wouldn’t wish going through that again for all of the reasons we know, on anybody, but I think there’s a lesson that I needed to pause to, I think, do that work and have that deeper reflection to bring some of this forward.

Chris: Man, I think it’s really powerful the way that you described, man, this was the first time I had been off the road for more than two weeks and what I would describe as discomfort in maybe a variety of ways. But I think that a lot of really valuable things come out of people who are willing to sit in discomfort and start to go, “I’m going to ask myself some really, really serious questions.” And all of those questions that you asked really started to... I call that, just that’s a lot of the digging and you started mining things that were already in there. And I think that it would be really helpful, just tell us a little bit about what are some of the practices that you were doing? Were you writing things down? What was the methodology that you either accidentally discovered or that you just practiced in order to say, “I got to do some mining to figure this thing out”?

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, thank you and great question. I’m actually glad we’re talking about this because I think it was important. And I don’t know if I’ve quantified, let’s say, a particular framework, but I can tell you specifically some of the things I was doing and you nailed the first one. So the practice of sitting in reflection or the quiet discomfort and asking myself those bigger and better questions.

Now I have a coach, and so I’m fortunate to have some support around, maybe this is a question that you want to consider that or this is a reflection. And then I think journaling, writing for myself as an outlet with no expectation that I’m going to do anything with that writing, that it’s just a way for me to process my thoughts and my feelings, which is also important. But letting yourself feel the feelings and sitting. “I just lost 90% of my revenue. It’s gone. I don’t know when it’s coming back. That doesn’t feel good, but what do I want to learn about that? Well, that’s interesting. I did the business a way for 10 years. How could I do it differently going forward?” And reflecting on that, journaling about that. Now then simultaneously, keep in mind, I’m actually writing a book. And so that was just interesting the way that that came together.

Chris: That is cool.

Ryan: And so then I had an opportunity to say, “Okay, is the outline of the book going to be relevant on the other side of this? What is the other side of this going to be?” And it actually helped us course correct the second half of the book, and it took much longer, but I was like, “No, actually we’re stopping this and we’re going to write the second half of this differently.” And honestly, the second half of the book is the human-centered piece we’ve been talking about. And so that’s where it came from. But I think you hit it, man. You said it brilliantly. It’s the sitting in the discomfort and practicing doing that because it isn’t natural at first. We want to run from that and then having support, it could be an advisory board. I have a brilliant coach who’s an incredible thinker and supporter. It could be a mastermind, whatever that is for you. But I think that piece is real important too because it gives you the gift of reflecting back to you while you’re doing the excavating and the digging that you referenced.

Turning dark moments into defining moments

Chris: Well, one of the things that I think is really powerful is this idea of reframing conflict. And let’s say, the conflict within yourself that you’re sitting there, you’re like, “Oh man, what is this?” Or this, “I just lost 90% of my revenue.” There’s conflict going inside. It’s like, “Man... I mean, there’s so many things in conflict. There’s no concert going on. It’s all conflict, right? There’s friction. You’re like, ”What am I going to do?“ And I think one of the things that really committed leaders and even leading themselves, I think something that happens often is for people to go, ”This is a gift. I got this unique set of circumstances, and it’s a real gift." And that reframing thing is a really powerful way that I think it’s a skill that if you can do that amidst a lot of friction, a lot of tension, you will find yourself in your roles or in other places where you can help other people reframe conflict, reframe situations.

Ryan: Our darkest moments can be defining moments if we’re awake to the learning. And so avoided conflict only grows, but addressed conflict, if you sit in the conflict, if you move into the conflict, that’s where the gift can emerge. And I love the way you framed it because I’ve often said this, I mean, the great recession of 2009 and then Covid 2020, those two experiences where the world seemed like it was collapsing, and I was feeling the weight of those collapses, they were my two greatest moments, my two greatest gifts because they served to be the catalyst to propel me in a new direction that ultimately, was more aligned with my harmony. Momentum through harmony. And I got that through those experiences.

But to your point, you have to sit in it. You have to be awake in it, or let’s say you have to do the work. And yeah, I mean, I think that’s part of the entrepreneurs journey because let’s face it, the mountains are not easy to climb and you’re going to be tested. And I think resilience in the test is what the entrepreneurs climb really is all about. Everybody can be the best sells when the record’s broken and when things are working out. But when everyone’s looking at you and everything is collapsing around you, you’re going to learn some things about yourself and again, start with yourself.

Chris: Yeah. I think one of the things people that are going through those dark moments tend to ask, “When you say do the work, what do you mean?” And there’s this idea that doing some sort of activity will get the difficulty, the pain, the challenge to go away. And I actually think it’s actually the work is inside the pain.

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, who is it? Joseph Campbell is one of my favorite quotes, “The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.” It’s like going inward, going into it. And it’s balancing all of these things. So there is a doing component. There is an action component. Action mitigates fear, and you have to be decisive and move and confront reality and make decisions. That’s a part of it. But you nailed the reframing. And the way I think he says it, Tony Robbins is where I heard it first, but it may have been someone else that he was quoting was, “Is this life happening to you or for you?” “Oh my gosh, I lost,” is that a curse, 80% of my revenue? Or wait a minute, wait a minute, where’s the lesson in this? Where’s the opportunity in this?

And I just started asking myself, “Okay, wow, I’m home. What am I going to do?” I didn’t even know what to do with myself, but I learned how to wakesurf and I built new relationships and I have a whole new community of friends at home that I wouldn’t have had, and I started a new business and people are like, “You shouldn’t start a business.” I’m like, “No, we should. There’s going to be opportunity out of this. The world is shifting. There’s challenge in this moment, but man, if you can look at it that way.” I’m a different person because of that. And so I always think about adversity when it comes like there’s something in this that you can mine for the gift.

Chris: Absolutely.

Ryan: Maybe that’s a good way to think about it.

Aligning your core values

Chris: Well, I want unpack the alignment part because I think that the self-leadership part is really, I mean, it’s absolutely the first step and on the end you’ve got the harmony piece. And I wonder because there’s multiple factors, or I’m going to say dimensions of the harmony. You have your own personal core values.

Ryan: Correct.

Chris: And then you likely are leading a business that should also have core values, and they probably aren’t the same as your internal core values. And so give me some thinking that you’ve had around aligning your personal core values to a business that actually has core values and actually screens people and creates culture around core values.

Ryan: Yeah, well, I think step one, so my thinking around that is I think alignment of congruence is really important. Congruence is a force multiplier. So if you feel like your work and life are integrated and they’re in alignment, I think you’re going to serve both interests better than if they’re totally separate. So the first question might be, that’s worth reflecting on is, do you have personal core values? And most people don’t. And so mine are right on my website. You can go to my about section, scroll down, and it’s like, these are my values, this is who I am. And they’re reflected in the personal practice of Ryan Estis as an expert or a speaker. And I also have a company that has core values. And you can see the integration in those two things. But that’s another question. A lot of small businesses, I was just with 200 business owners yesterday, core values, less than half the room. And when we talk about this idea of work, when core values are fully known and understood, employees are 38 times more likely to be fully engaged.

Chris: So true.

Ryan: 38 times. So what’s the cost of inspecting what you value and making that known and understood? So I think step one is the practice of just getting clarity around those things. And again, where does that come from? Inside of you. It’s the excavation. It’s the process of knowing, “Hey, that’s a value.” And one of our core values in the company at ImpactEleven is leave it better. Leave it better than you found it. And that means the company, but it also means people. And that’s part of our employment value proposition. Chris, if you come to work for us, you’re going to have an opportunity to contribute to our mission and I think we’re doing meaningful work and we’re going to create exponential impact, we’re going to leave the world a better place, but our promise back to you is we’re going to leave you better. You’re going to be better for having spent time here. And I think that should be part of the promise of what we’re doing for our employees and our team members. Why shouldn’t work be that way? And it can be if we take a human-centered approach.

Owning the outcome

Chris: The way that we use core values. So I’ll talk about one of them, is own the outcome together.

Ryan: That’s great.

Chris: So one of them is if you’re in an organization that has, let’s say, it’s functionalized. You have these dependencies that you’re designed to do work together and be dependent on one another. And let’s just say you have product and you have marketing and you have sales. The friction points are abundant.

Ryan: They are.

Chris: But it’s also you have these competencies that if they can work together, there’s some really remarkable things that can happen because you have marketing that at least has some touch point to the customer, should have clear understanding of the customer. You have sales who’s actually interacting with customers and knows when we’re winning and we’re losing and the closer product can get to the customer and they share their perspectives, those are really huge moments. And if you think about owning the outcome together, product goes and says, “I think we should build something that does this.” And if it is out of alignment with what marketing and sales are one, capable of, or two, is that going to resonate with the customer? There’s a lot of challenges there. And so that’s why the thing is that we, as leaders, have to hold each other accountable to be like, “Did we do the work to figure out if that’s the thing?”

Ryan: I mean, it’s 100% right because when you’re in alignment or when you’re working that way, when there’s effective collaboration and that comes through conflict that’s going to rise, there’s friction points or tension points, it becomes a force multiplier.

Chris: Yeah.

Ryan: You’re a marketer. I mean, you could think about filling the top of the funnel in ways that are way beyond my competency or capacity, but once I’m engaging a qualified opportunity, that’s where I’m my best.

Chris: Absolutely.

Ryan: And so to get to the finish line, I need you to bring all of your skill and insight and ideation to this and then hand me the baton. And if we’re in concert and we’re doing that together, what’s more fun than that? And where you’re actually contributing to something that you believe in and to the outcome and your skills and talent is needed. And I know I can’t do my best work without you, and I contribute my piece and then the whole becomes better. And that really is the right way, I think, to think about that integration.

Chris: Yeah, and I think one of them, I’d say the antithesis to owning the outcome together because I mean, I’d say a happy customer is the outcome.

Ryan: That’s right.

Chris: If we did our jobs, we’re all working in concert to do that. But one of the things that I loved what Josh talked about was he really... Because I want to talk about the core values in screening people.

Ryan: Sure.

Chris: And one of the things that he really brought out was this idea of blame. And if you are talking to somebody that’s going to play a role in, let’s just say, one of those product sales or marketing and they... Blame is the opposite of owning the outcome because there’s an acceptance of responsibility, right?

Ryan: 100%.

Chris: And that’s one of the things that I think is really good. So maybe talk to us a little bit about building teams and screening people and things like that according to the values. How are some of the ways that you think about that and practices that you recommend?

Ryan: So the first practice is know the team and know the mission and know the objective. So the first part of that I think about is who are we and who would fit well here? And I think getting clarity around that. So that’s the first step. And then I think you have a road map or a framework then to take into a behavioral interview. And then it’s mapping some questions that are in alignment or revealing a person’s previous history and deepest desires. I like to ask people about conflict intention points and failures, and you’ll see if somebody owns the outcome. “Tell me about a time that you worked on a team and the results were disappointing. What went wrong?” That’s a great question because it’s going to reveal and you can quickly discern as somebody owning their piece of it or they pointing fingers.

Chris: You got it.

Ryan: Right?

Chris: You got it.

Ryan: So I mean, even in a question like this to ask somebody, “Have you thought about your own personal core values? What are they?” And has someone given that some thought?

Chris: Yes.

Building the right team

Ryan: And by the way, recruiting is hard because you get a limited window, right?

Chris: You do.

Ryan: So you want to be as thorough as you can and check references and do your due diligence. But business is changing so fast today, even thinking about do we have all of the right people on the right jobs? And one of the questions I challenge leaders to think, particularly small business owners is knowing what I know now, would I hire this person again? And if you have a moment of pause around that, you might have a courageous conversation or some thinking that needs to take place. I was just listening to a podcast, Reed Hastings, the founder of Netflix, and he said, “Look, at Netflix, we have the keeper test. If somebody came and resigned on your team, would you go above you to fight your ass off to keep that person? And if the answer’s no, what are you doing? You have a responsibility. We have a responsibility to put stars on the field.”

The other thing he said on the podcast was, this was his words, not mine, but it’s worth considering, “Adequate performance gets a generous severance.” And they’re trying to be a pro team, man. They’re trying to win in their marketplace and it’s hard and it’s competitive and they’re trying to drive innovation. And so that’s the way he thought about talent. And that resonated with me.

Chris: 100%. I think one of the things of, let’s just say I used to hire 90% skills and 10%, could I work with this person? That was...

Ryan: I get it.

Chris: I would say that that was very manager level thinking, not leader level thinking. And so I think one of the things that I do now is probably my mix is more like 75% culture. Am I recognizing core values that already exist, that are in alignment or are congruent? Do I see alignment there? And do I have enough of a nexus of information about that person to be like, “They fit in the culture.” And it isn’t like, “Do I like them?” It is core values alignment. And then the other 25% is like, “Do they have the skills?” And it’s like, “Or do they have super power level skills?”

Ryan: Right.

Chris: And at the end of the day, one of the things that I’ve found is that when you have built a team that fits that and that person talks to any other of those people, they want to be on the team and people tend to want to do better.

Ryan: Well, that’s exactly right. I mean, people continue to self-select. And so the idea of core values is don’t just stick them on the wall, make it part of how you manage performance and how you start every meeting. Embed them into the fabric of the culture. We have t-shirts, “Give generously, don’t keep score.” I mean, we have another value, “Smoother than a fresh jar of Skippy,” which is hunt down friction and remove it, make it easier for customers to do business. And you start to understand, “Okay, these guys don’t take themselves that seriously.” Here’s another one, “Dance like nobody’s watching.” You think I want to do this for 10 or 15 years and not enjoy it? What are we doing this for? And so of course we’re going to have fun and celebrate progress and celebrate each other and fight hard together, but we’re going to enjoy the ride. And so you know a little bit about us, and now it is that sort of assessment. “Hey, would someone fit into this?”

But you can also, by sharing those, give somebody an opportunity to self-select. I mean, imagine if you’re a manager at a place like Netflix and you say, “Hey, adequate performance gets a generous severance, and we have this thing here called the keeper test.” You know what it’s like to work there. And you could say, "Wow, that’s... If you shudder at that or you back up to that, it’s not for you, and that’s okay. So I’m with you on the 75/25 split. I thought that was a really good way to think about it.

But another thing I think about recruiting, I call it the realistic job preview. When we find a rock star, we start selling and “Hey man, this is the best place to sell and you’ll love it and the commission’s this,” but we got to realistically tell people, “Hey, we’re a startup. This is hard. It’s not 40 hours a week. We’re making sacrifices. I was looking at our Slack channel and this is the kind of conversation that was going on until 10:00 last night. I just want you to know this is what it’s like.” And just give people an honest assessment. I think that’s fair because you’re asking people to make a big life decision. And so it should be stewarded seriously. You’re leaving this, coming here, you have a family. I really take that and you want to respect that choice and that agreement seriously and give it the time that it deserves.

Chris: Well, the one that we haven’t spent much time on yet, and we’ve hinted around is this connection, right? Connection, I think connection through service?

Ryan: Yeah, connect in service.

Chris: So give us your best story, your best person that you’re like, “This person lives this thing.”

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, you’re going to force me to pick one. I’ve got a couple in my mind now, but let’s pick one just for the purpose of conversation. So I wrote the book with my brother, Chad and for a couple of reasons, but one of the reasons was Chad has an interesting job. He runs the business of the Dallas Cowboys, so he doesn’t have anything to do with the players and the product they put on the field, but everything in terms of revenue, reports in to him. And one of the cool parts about writing that book is he practices all of the principles. He’s a real human-centered leader. And so I think his approach to it is about connecting in service of the other person, but also the interests of the business. And so he’s a very human-centered, results focused leader.

And two things that I think are pretty cool about his approach, they’re tactics, things that he does, but one of the principles in the book, which we fought about the naming of it, but he wouldn’t relent, so it’s “Go for coffee.” But he does this. He allows anybody in the organization at any level to schedule a one-on-one with him, and they go for coffee, and it just gives him line of sight into the business. You don’t have to ask your manager’s manager. We’re not doing all that bullshit here. You can come and schedule the meeting with me and we’re going to go out and I’m going to get to know you. I’m going to ask you questions about your life, your family, but I’m going to also help you figure out what you want a year from now, three years from now, because if you don’t know what you want, and a lot of young people don’t. “Where would you like to be five years from now?” I asked my nephew or nieces that, no idea.

Chris: No idea.

Ryan: He said, “My job is to help them understand because then we can support them better. If somebody knows what they want, I can help them get there.” And so he’s really invested in this idea of developing their career. Be an ambassador for what that person wants in their life, in their career, in their family. When you pour into somebody that way, when you invest yourself into somebody that way, the loyalty is incredible. And he built this cool thing, he calls it his leadership tree, which is like a family tree, but it’s all the people that came under him in the business that have then moved out and done all of these other wonderful things in their life and ultimately, and to the day, that’s what he points to as his biggest accomplishment. That’s in service of others. And that reverberates through a business, through a culture. And then how do you think they think about their relationships with customers? How do you think they show up and sell? It’s in service of helping someone else get what they want. So it’s a good example.

Chris: That’s a great example.

Ryan: Thanks, man.

Chris: That is an unexpectedly great example.

Ryan: Thank you. Whether you’re a Cowboys fan or not.

Prioritizing people

Chris: Yeah, I mean, it’s really amazing. So if you think about this human-centered leadership, there’s a lot of things that we have talked about that I think many people running businesses would be like, “Man, that seems like a distraction to run my business that way,” or “Man, that’s a big pivot for me to try and do that. Can I even try this on?” What advice would you give to somebody that’s challenged in the, “I have an assembly line, I hold people accountable to the work.”

Ryan: Yeah. Well, I think you’re minimizing your opportunity for growth. So human-centered organizations outperform traditional or business leadership organizations by 30%. They outperform the S&P by 211%. They get ideas to the market two times faster. So when you think about the next five or 10 years, your survival, your sustainability, but certainly your opportunity to grow, I think is going to be dependent upon these principles. And so a big pushback around this, and we address this in the book, is, “This sounds great. I don’t have the time for that. One-on-ones every week? Go for coffee? I’m trying to run a business here.” And that is the job. As a leader, if you’re not spending a third of your time with your people, you’re not doing the job.

And it’s funny, in executive coaching, I could ask a CEO, “Tell me about your priorities. Tell me about your leadership philosophy.” In short order, they’re going to get to the idea that people are important or people. And then the next question I’ll ask is, “Well, give me your phone.” “Wait, my phone?” “Well, I want to look at your calendar to see how you’re prioritizing what you just said is most important.”

Chris: Yep.

Ryan: And so I don’t know that it’s a wholesale shift. It’s reframing. The last point I’ll make around this seems hard. It is hard because it’s a shift in the way we’ve traditionally led teams and organizations, and I thought it was the right person to say it. The CEO of Microsoft who’s a very human-centered leader, Satya Nadella, who really turned Microsoft around in many respects when he came in in 2014, and I think that’s a case study that’s going to be studied for hundreds of years. Here he is revolutionizing technology and leveraging artificial intelligence and turning around Microsoft. And leadership today, it’s about emotional intelligence. EQ trumps IQ. He said, “Empathy is the gateway to innovation.” It’s the gateway to connecting in service. And it’s not a soft skill. It’s one of the hardest things we can do.

But fundamentally, as humans, we have a deeply held desire to be seen, known, heard, understood, and valued. And leaders that can connect in that way with their teams, their people, their customers, their communities, are putting their organizations in a position to not only be relevant, but to thrive into the future. And ultimately, you talk about own the responsibility of the outcomes, that is the responsibility. Leave it better than I found it, not can I inflate my numbers for a quarter to make my bonus? That’s the wrong way to look at it. That’s my case for why it’s important because it’s a driver of results.

Chris: Yeah, and that’s a case at scale because something you called out that I think is worth chatting about is this idea of living in verbal reality. You were talking about, hey, the CEO says, “Oh man, people are important.” And those are words. He’s verbally expressing this. And you’re like, “Hey, let’s see what the evidence is.”

Ryan: Right.

Chris: And I think that’s been one of the biggest challenges for me as a leader, is there are things that you are making, you get in this practice, “Hey, I’m casting vision. Here’s where we’re headed,” all these kinds of things that haven’t happened yet. And so you will talk to a leader and get the verbal reality of people are important, but they’re not living that evidence. And that’s something you can change today that isn’t casting vision for the future. And so I think one of the things that would be really interesting to get your perspective on is people who live in verbal realities, what do you think is the thing or are examples of some of the things that might be in the way of them acknowledging that?

Ryan: So a couple things get in the way, and by the way, this is very normal, so there’s no guilt or shame here. I’ve lived in my verbal reality at times.

Chris: Same.

Ryan: Right, and so I’ll use myself, when I get stuck in that pattern, a couple of things are missing. One, a little bit of space to self-reflect. So we talked about how important that is. “Did I read those values again and am I living them? And how am I showing up?” So that space, but an ego gets in the way. “Am I showing up with something to prove or something to give? Is that connection about me or is it in service?” But I think one of the things that leaders really need to have is a feedback mechanism. And so you have to have... Whether you’re getting that from a coach, an advisory board, your own team, I think most leaders would be, well-served by asking a question to their direct reports, “Is there anything I could do differently that would help support you getting your goals accomplished?” Having the courage to ask for that feedback.

And I’m a big fan, I’ve written about this and talked about it, of having a personal board of directors, people that you respect, maybe that have a skill or competency or a perspective that you don’t have, and inviting them, at some degree of interval, to be in that conversation. So I think time is a barrier. I think we rationalize things, so limited self-awareness, ego gets in the way, but I think we can mitigate some of that with a really good feedback loop. And I think every leader needs that.

Chris: If I were to summarize some of what you said, there’s an acceptance of responsibility for your condition and where you’re at. But then the other piece is that whole self-awareness can come from asking for feedback. And that personal board of directors is a really great practice. I mean, I think Brene Brown calls it your square squad, but these are people that you trust that are going to give you the feedback. And I think that if we have those people in our lives and they’re constantly being invited to speak into how are we showing up, one of the biggest things to do is there’s asking them and then there’s asking the people that you work with every day and be like, "Okay, these are my intentions. And are you seeing my actions back up? Are they matched? How I’m showing up, is it congruent-

Ryan: That’s it, man.

Chris: ...with my intentions?

Ryan: Powerful. And you know what you’re also moving into with that frame? Is how you create a culture of accountability. Accountability gets talked a lot about today because we’re in a sensitive time. It’s like, “Wow, the pace of change is accelerating. The landscape is so competitive, the marketplace is uncertain. We’re in an election year, there’s global unrest. I need my people to pour into this. All hands on deck.” It’s that energy. And at the same time, people are overwhelmed, stressed, anxious, and so we’ve got to take better care of our people and well-being and mental health. And so how do we create a culture of accountability during the sensitive time? That’s how you do it.

And the way I frame that is leaders go first. What I mean by that is this. If I’m going to set high expectations, if we’re going to go run the hill, if we’re going to break a record, whatever it is, the next words out of my mouth should be, “And here’s what you can expect from me.” And if I’ve communicated that clearly, which is step one, by the way, have you clearly communicated what your team can expect from you? Step two is then living the behavior. Are you delivering on that behavior? “I’m going to set the pace. I’m going... ”Okay, are you delivering on that?" Communicate it, deliver the behavior, and then close the loop with feedback. Ask. And if you do those three things, man, watch. That’s a culture of accountability.

Chris: Absolutely.

Ryan: And you know what? That’s where I want to work.

Chris: Me too.

Ryan: Yeah.

Finding the humility to create leaders

Chris: Me too. I talk about my leadership evolution. I was a pretty immature leader, but I was also an immature person. The more that I got to work around people like that, the more I was like, “I want to do work to lead that way. I want to be one of those people.” And I have to tell you, it’s been an accelerant for me personally, and I think it can be for everybody. And that’s why if you choose to work at a place, or if you choose to be an entrepreneur that builds a place like that, that people want to work there because you are helping them become ridiculously amazing, not only in their skills, but in their ability to lead and to be amazing people and to lead amazing lives, I mean, it absolutely is a game changer. It was a game changer for me.

Ryan: The best leaders build other leaders. And what an incredible dose of humility to recognize, “Hey, I need to figure this out.” My path was very similar, to be honest. I was a pretty strong individual contributor. I was a great sales rep, and for the first few years I was an awful sales manager. And I would’ve been a terrible person to work for. I had very, very little self-awareness, very little emotional regulation. I had a lot of ego and bravado, a chip on my shoulder like I had something to prove. I wanted to prove my father was wrong, or it doesn’t matter what, I can do it, I belong. There’s a lot of insecurity and fear packed under that initial bravado.

But again, lead yourself first, do the work. The unraveling that and really understanding what leadership was about, it isn’t about you. It isn’t a job, it’s a responsibility. And it’s about helping other people. It’s about putting other people in a position to become the best they’re capable of being. And it requires humility and curiosity and courage and sacrifice and service. And in some respects, love. But man, when you build the thing the way you described it, that thing, it’s enduring. It’s bigger than you. And I call that exponential impact. It’s beyond the walls of the building too. People take that home, they take it into their community, they take it into their church, they take it into their friends, and it reverberates. And I think it’s the awesome opportunity we have as leaders to create impact.

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you talked about the transition from sales to speaking, and you’ve got a new book, which is pretty awesome.

Ryan: Thank you.

Chris: Tell us a little bit about what you’re up to.

Ryan: Yeah, so the book came out this year, so I’m having some fun traveling and speaking and doing that. We’ve launched the brand and the body of work, and so I am trying to share this message. I mean, it’s this conversation about the human-centered growth, which is I think a different approach to both sales and leadership. So it’s on my heart. So we’re working with clients and teams to do that. And then we’ve talked a little bit about our dear friend Josh, my business partner at ImpactEleven.So we built a pretty robust community of thought leaders, people that are doing this, that are activating their thought leadership and their IP in their expertise and service of others. So we’ve got a cool community and a think tank of experts that’s growing exponentially to create exponential impact.

And that, again, out of Covid comes this realization that I don’t want to do this alone anymore. I want to be part of something that’s bigger than me and I wonder if there are other experts that feel like I do, and could we come together in a community and support each other and have honest and real conversations and grow together? And wow, if we did that and we were better served for it, would we be better servants because of it and create more impact in the world and that reverberated. And so that’s the idea, is to influence over 1,000 experts or thought leaders who are going to go out into the world and with their words and ideas, make a meaningful contribution and create exponential impact. And I think I’ll look back on that movement in 15 years and be like, “Wow, I was part of that community that made a little dent in the universe,” and that makes it worth it to me, man.

Chris: Yeah, that’s amazing. Well, you’re doing amazing stuff.

Ryan: Thanks.

Chris: I have to say super encouraged by the energy in the conversation today.

Ryan: Me too.

Chris: And you’ve shared a lot of incredible insights with us. But before we go, what’s one takeaway that you can leave with our listeners that will help them embody more human-centered leadership in their businesses?

Ryan: Yeah, I think start with what’s inside of you. And I think you and I both spent a lot of time on that, and I think we’re both case studies of doing that. I think we both had the honest admission that we weren’t very good leaders in the beginning, and that required doing the inner work. So to know yourself is to trust yourself and to trust yourself is the pathway toward loving yourself. And leaders who love themselves and know themselves ultimately, are more human-centered and better servants. So don’t start with why, start with you.

Chris: Oh, that’s great. That’s great. Well, Ryan Estis, thank you so much for joining us in the studio.

Ryan: Thank you, brother.

Chris: Absolutely.