Season 3 Episode 18
Stephanie Spencer, Leadership and Personal Development Coach

What is the Enneagram?

Chris Allen: I’d like to welcome to the Entrepreneur’s Studio, the one and only, Stephanie Spencer. Welcome, Stephanie.

Stephanie Spencer: I don’t know that I’ve ever been introduced as the one and only.

Chris: That’s the only one I know.

Stephanie: It’s actually not true, there’s a lot of Stephanie Spencers in the world.

Chris: Then I stand corrected.

Stephanie: Only one me, just-

Chris: Well, very unique you, for sure. The thing that’s really fun about this conversation is how much we’ve been able to work together. And I was like, man, to have you on and to be able to talk about all the new stuff that you’re doing, but then at the same time have the conversation about how you work with teams and things like that, it’s a real privilege to have you.

Stephanie: Thanks, it’s good to be here.

Chris: Yeah, yeah. We’ve spent years coaching individuals and teams and one of the primary tools you use is Enneagram, the Enneagram. But for our listeners who maybe aren’t familiar with the tool, give us kind of an overview of what Enneagram is.

Stephanie: It is a way of understanding humans. So most people have been exposed to something in this realm, whether it’s Myers-Briggs or DISC or StrengthsFinders, the list goes on, there’s many of them. Enneagram is one of those tools. I like Enneagram as a tool because it’s more complex than the other ones at diving into not only our strengths but our weaknesses and the things that we tend to trip on. So as a whole, it’s naming nine different types and in their ways of being in the world, it’s naming things that those types are motivated to do, things they’re striving for, and the way that the things they’re striving for can be things that they trip on. And I like to think of it as ways that we overuse the best parts of ourselves, to be able to see both, that this is a really good thing and it’s something I overuse, really helps us see ourselves with more clarity. And it also helps us see others with more compassion, which is really one of the things that happens then in teams to say, “Oh, you’re not just annoying, there’s a reason.”

Chris: No I’m not.

Stephanie: There’s a reason that we’re approaching this so differently. There’s something that you’re looking for that’s different than what I’m looking for. And so it defines nine different ways of being in the world for what we’re looking for and what that creates of strengths and shadow sides for those nine types.

Chris: I know you said it’s more complex and I would say when I’ve tried to understand it on my own, felt really complex, but the more that I worked with you, the more approachable I’ve described it as one of the most approachable. And I don’t know necessarily why I say that, but I have found way more practical use and understanding myself, seeing myself in certain times of stress or in growth or whatever, but understanding others as well. So give us a little bit of how sort of in practice you take this knowledge of Enneagram and how you work with people to sort of do the typing and how that works and understanding yourself and how that can evolve to working with other people around that person.

Discovering types

Stephanie: The first step is a hard one, which is figuring out our types. And so for some people that’s a really quick journey and I can look at the descriptions and know in a second that’s what I am. And for some people it’s much harder because there’s a lot of layers to being a human. So depending on our trauma background, our attachment style, our race, our socioeconomic status, I’ve worked with immigrants who have typed thought they were another type than they were because of the way that was a layer on their experience. And so that typing process can be difficult for some, quick for others. But it’s worth spending the time to really look at what those nine types are, which ones I identify with. And then as I get to know myself better, that helps me know how I’m approaching a conversation. And also getting a flyover of how my teammate is approaching that conversation differently can really help.

So for example, I am a type four which is in the heart center of the Enneagram. So I tend to approach things based on image and relationship and emotion. And I’m married to someone who’s a type one, who’s in the gut center of the Enneagram who tends to approach things based on responsibility and practicality and what’s right and wrong. And so Enneagram has helped us see why we fight. Because it just tends to be, oh, you’re just seeing this same thing very differently. And so that works with teams as well. If you can look at each other and say, “Oh, of course.” It’s like that parable of the blind men around, the elephant of one is describing the trunk one’s describing the tail, and it sounds like they’re describing something very different, but it’s just a different lens and a different spot on the same thing. And the nine types are nine different people gathered around the same thing that when we can see both how we’re seeing and how someone else is seeing, it helps us work together a lot better.

Chris: I love it. I will say that starting to practice this, just understanding my type and trying to understand to others, and I definitely want you to take us through the types here in just a second. But the perspective taking is really the, I’d say the skill that has kind of come out of this for me, which is being able to go, “I wonder how they see this?” And to take that pause and go, “I want to understand how they see this thing.” Especially if there’s friction or something like that because almost like signals where it’s like, oh, they’re doing the thing. I understand they’re doing the thing, they’re clearly just clearly stressed and here’s where they go when they’re stressed. And I’m like, “Tell me your perspective. How are you seeing this?”

Stephanie: Well, and I love that because that means you’ve been a good student of the Enneagram because responding with curiosity is key. So some people have probably had a negative experience with either one of those other personality systems or with Enneagram, if someone’s used it as a box or a weapon or a shield, because that happens a lot. Or we’ll hide inside of our type or we’ll look at someone else and we’ll say, “Oh, you must just be this way because that type.” And so what you’re doing of responding with curiosity, I wonder how you see this differently than I do, is the key to making any tool like this useful in the workplace. Because otherwise it actually can be quite damaging to team culture. If I’m using this as a box, that’s not going to help my company get better. But if I’m engaging with curiosity, then it can really improve culture, which drives so much else of what work experiences.

Chris: I think in conflict. And even just trying to understand how to use Enneagram, I’ve discovered a lot more that the conflict that we had is because we were seeing things the same thing from a different point of view. And when you can respond with curiosity and have somebody else unpack that point of view, and just holding space for that has totally changed the way that I experience connection with people that I work with and in my personal life. It’s amazing, it’s amazing.

Stephanie: I love that even beyond Enneagram, that was just good wisdom for working with people, hold space for curiosity and it will change how you connect with people. That was just good advice, Chris.

Chris: There you go. Well, give us a flyover of all nine types.

Stephanie: I’m going to start with type two, which the reason I’m doing that is because the nine types divide into three different intelligence centers and I think we’ll talk about how to use that in teams, it’s a really great approach, but types two, three and four in the heart center. So anybody who’s bothered by order, I’m not starting with type one on purpose, I didn’t miss it, but we’ll start with type two. So type two can be described as somebody who’s generous and cooperative and oriented towards connection. So as we think about how we see both a gift and a shadow inside of a type A, type two is seeking and relationships. And because of that, they’re using their energy to support other people, but that also means they can get tripped up on becoming a people pleaser or being intrusive.

And so that’s the thing for them to notice, is my help going too far? Is my desire for connection going too far? Am I tripping up on that? If I’m not, if I’m a two, offer the strengths of compassion and intuition and hospitality and empathy. Compare that to a type three also in heart center, which is somebody who’s efficient and successful and oriented towards achievement. And so this is still somebody who’s very people oriented because I want people to notice that I’m doing a good job. If I’m a three, I’m seeking accomplishment and I’m seeking leadership. And so in that case, I’m using my energy to achieve goals, but that again, can be the thing I trip on. That means I can struggle with workaholism or image management as I want to be seen as a successful person and that can trip me up.

Chris: That’s awesome.

Stephanie: But if I work on that, I can really show the strengths of charm, productivity, efficiency, and a team orientation. And then type four, also in the heart center. Here we have somebody who’s more in the realm of being deep and creative and oriented towards self-expression. So if I’m a four, I’m seeking something like distinctiveness and meaning. And so that means I’m focusing my energy on introspection and feelings. So that’s going to trip me up and I’m going to sometimes tend towards being melancholy or filled with longing for something that I don’t have. But if I work on that, that means I can show the strengths of sensitivity, expression, creativity, and emotional honesty.

So there’s a stream that those three have in common of that image, emotion, relationship focus, but there’s also then three distinct types within that. Compare that to the head center, which is oriented more towards things like logic, ideas, security and planning in three different ways. So with the five, we have a type that’s more independent and analytic oriented towards competency. And so here we have somebody who’s seeking knowledge and detachment, which means they’re using their energy to figure things out. They want to be observing and they want to find an expertise, but that means they can struggle with being guarded and isolated as they’re trying to figure things out before they bring themselves forward.

But if they bring that energy forward, then they can bring insight and synthesis and wisdom and curiosity. Compare that to a six who’s more responsible and loyal oriented towards planning. So here we have somebody who is seeking support and being prepared, which means they’re using their energy towards hard work and pragmatism. What’s going to happen if this domino falls? Can we plan for all the dominoes? But that’s then the thing that’s going to trip them up and they’re going to struggle with doubt and defensiveness about what might happen if. But if they’re working on that doubt, defensiveness, anxiety, then they really bring a strong work ethic, commitment, preparedness, Conscientiousness towards all the pieces of things.

Enneagram seven is a head type that’s really using their thinking towards energy and optimism. They’re oriented around possibilities, they’re seeking excitement and flexibility, and so their energy is just optimistic and joyful. Sevens are really fun to be around. But that means they can struggle with being scattered and undisciplined because of the way they’re always using their energy towards the next thing. But if they work on that, they really bring the strengths of versatility and enthusiasm, optimism and spontaneity. Now the gut center. So we’re now going to see a whole nother set of lenses oriented much more towards comfort, instinct, energy, autonomy. So in here we have a type eight, who’s confident and protective and oriented towards forward action. So eights tend to seek power and strength and their energy is moving with assertive and decisive action, which means the thing that can trip them up is becoming domineering or confrontational as I’m always trying to move forward and sometimes a barrier is a barrier.

Chris: That one sounds really familiar.

Stephanie: I wonder why? But that strengths there are assertiveness, strength, charisma, and honesty. Type nine, also in the gut, but here we have an energy that’s more accepting and supportive and oriented towards harmony. So a nine is seeking comfort and peace and holding their energy back really in order to be able to go with the flow and avoid conflict. So that means they’re going to struggle with things like minimizing and complacency to have that keeping the peace. But if they’re doing their work, they really bring patience and groundedness and flexibility and understanding. And last we have type one, so principled and right and oriented towards excellence. So here we have somebody who’s seeking improvement and high standards. One, always see how much better things could be, and so their energy is concentrated on that rightness, on that better, on that next thing that it could be, which means they can struggle with frustration and criticalness of all the things that aren’t good enough yet. But if they work on that, then they can really bring reliability and wisdom and commitment and objectivity.

Chris: That’s amazing.

Stephanie: So there’s a flyover.

Chris: Well, the flyover is really helpful because I do think that one of the things that I appreciate that you did is you made this downloadable PDF that we’ll make available in the show notes that I think really helps people get an introductory sort of what this thing is. But that conversation that I would love to unpack with you is the Enneagram in the workplace. Because as entrepreneurs or as leaders, there are a host of tools that you can use to really sort of put this thing in practice and start to understand yourself and understand people. So talk to us about the work that you do when you’re bringing Enneagram into the workplace.

Bringing the Enneagram into the workplace

Stephanie: I think one of the things that I really like to use as a tool for teams is triads starting with this intelligence center triads because it gets concrete really fast. And so an exercise that I’ve used, I think I use this exercise with your team, is breaking people up into groups and pretending that they have been put on teams to decide the snacks for the break room. So listeners can imagine this. So I’ll put gut center, anybody who’s a gut center type in one group, anybody who’s a heart center type in another group and anybody who’s a head center type in another group and say, “Okay, your task is to figure out snacks for the break room. We’ll come back together in 5, 10 minutes, tell us what you landed on.” And inevitably the gut center resents this activity even being a part of the plan. I don’t want to be on that team anyway, it doesn’t need to be a team, much less a pretend exercise of this. Just go to the store with some money, buy something salty, buy something sweet, buy something healthy, done, and they get done very quickly and wonder why everybody else is still talking because it doesn’t need to be a team or an exercise.

Chris: I have been in that group.

Stephanie: And then the heart center, I have actually had a team leader who is a type three in the heart center who is ready to fight, so energized about the importance of good snacks in the break room because of the culture that it creates, because of the relationships that are forged over good snacks. Like you guys, it is important to have quality snacks in the break room, do not discount this. It makes people feel valued and important and we should know what their allergies are and we should know when their birthdays are because this is a part of culture to have good food in the break room. And then inevitably the head center is the only group that’s thought about the budget or the timeline of how many people are going to be eating these snacks, do they have food allergies? There is something that can’t be in the break room, should we do a survey to figure that out? I feel like you bristle at the idea.

Chris: Oh, I do. I’m like, we’re going to take a survey over the snack choices.

Stephanie: And so that’s the other thing that happens, is just doing an exercise like that, we can feel ourselves bristle about the things that aren’t important so that we can have those conversations in that setting to prepare us for them when the stakes are higher. So I pick snacks in the break room on purpose because nobody really cares that much except for that team leader who was ready to fight his team. But you could feel the energy and say, okay, now what happens when this is about our budget for the year or whether to let go of an employee or whether to take on that new strategic plan, we still have these lenses then and it matters more and we’re going to get more encamped in our own perspective and have to work harder to see the other perspective as being valuable.

Chris: Yeah, I will say that after doing that exercise and you got a host these things, but after doing that exercise, what you discover is those points of view, they really, really matter and they’re worth sort of bringing in. And then you’ve got the space that everybody’s got to hold. That’s the one thing everybody’s got to do, is everybody has to hold the space to have those conversations. And then you’ve got to go, now we need to make a decision and then we need to act on these things. So one of the things that I loved is that in our leadership team, at the time when we did this, you were like, “Hey, of the three centers, you’ve got a gap in this one. And so here’s what your decision-making might look like.” So unpack that a little bit about how leaders really need to be conscious of what may be missing so that they can make better decisions.

Stephanie: And I think the temptation when something is missing is, “Oh, we should hire for that gap.” But I don’t recommend using Enneagram as a hiring tool in that way because what is more important is that people are healthy. What is more important is that people are doing introspective work, that people are growing in their leadership no matter what type they are. So if I were to just hire out, let’s say we do that exercise and there is no one from the head center, the answer isn’t to hire a five, six, or seven. The answer is to say, okay, how do we structure around that being a gap? How do we recognize that the thing we are most likely to miss are things about domino effect thinking, are things about budget? Are things about pausing to read a book about this thing? Or in the case of a seven are things like the optimistic possibilities of planning the brainstorming meetings of where we could go. But to say, because that’s a gap, we’re going to structure that in. I have an example of that from another exercise I did, if that’s helpful?

Chris: Of course.

Stephanie: So another way to break up Enneagram into groups of three is about energies and how energetic we are and how we approach problem-solving, how approach social dynamics. And so we have types three, seven and eight who are in the active energy triad. So those three types all have a lot of forward motion when they’re moving towards something, they’re, “Let’s go ahead.” And so they tend to have a future orientation in their thinking in that sort of go-ahead mentality. Whereas types four or five and nine or in the receptive energy triad, they tend to come into a room really open to what the possibilities are, bringing the past in with them, really sort of making some space a little bit differently.

And even in those two you can hear how there’s a strength and a weakness. So the active triad can tend to move too fast, sometimes the receptive triad moves too slow. I’m in that triad, so sometimes I’m overtaking things in instead of just taking simple actions forward. Sometimes an active triad person is just moving forward without taking everything in that would be helpful. And then the balancing is in between. So ones, twos and sixes tend to kind of at a room and say, “What’s missing? What’s needed here? What are the expectations here?” And so those types in the presence of good leadership will follow, in the absence of leadership, they will lead. They’re your folks who are going to just make sure that we get done what we need to get done and pick up dropped balls. And so there was a team where two-thirds of the team was in the active triad, and one-third of the team, including the team leader, was in the receptive triad and nobody was in the balancing. And all I did was I walked in-

Chris: Pay attention.

Stephanie: Yes. So having done some of the typing work with the team ahead of time, I actually knew, I was like, “Oh, this is one of their issues. I haven’t seen them interact as a team, but I’m confident with that gap that this is a thing they’re stumbling on.” And all I did was divide them up onto halves of the room and they just felt it.

Chris: Wow.

Stephanie: Just said, “Oh.” Because that active group kept moving towards the receptive group because the receptive group was behind on their email and not pinging back fast enough. But the more the active moved in, the more the receptive moved back and they were in a cycle of moving from assertiveness to aggression-

Chris: Wow.

Stephanie: ... and moving from receptiveness to retreat. And it was getting them stuck without the ones, twos and sixes in the room. So I witnessed this the next day then, they were having a meeting where they were putting up their pillars that they were working on. And the team leader said, “Okay, everybody’s going to get 10 minutes to talk about their pillars with the team and then we’re going to have feedback.” But 30 minutes into the conversation, they hadn’t moved on from the first person because the leader was in the receptive group and was making space for everybody’s questions. And it was getting derailed, the meeting was getting derailed. So I kindly raised my hand and suggested to the team leader that they implement a timer. And literally had a phone that then played the role of the balancing triad on behalf of that person not being in the room. And they honed in and they didn’t let anybody go over the 10 minutes and then they had questions. And that was then that timer, that phone was the thing that filled in the gap that they noticed that they had. It didn’t require a person, a system could fill in the gap and it transformed that meeting just by having a timer

Chris: That is so well expressed. And I think as, let’s just say solopreneurs, they’re probably sitting here going teams, what do you mean? I’m doing this on my own. What is something because I do think three groups, we need to unpack how they can use this. So I’m thinking solopreneur or somebody doing something on their own. Then you’ve got what I would call, it could be a smaller business or it could be kind of a seed stage or series A startup. And then you’ve got sort of large enterprise, larger companies with larger leadership teams. I think that one really helps with some of the examples that we say, what would be the most practical use of solopreneurs that are dependent on other people that don’t work necessarily for them?

Using the Enneagram as a solopreneur

Stephanie: I think that’s where the best use of Enneagram for anybody in those three categories is self-development work. We’re very tempted with any tool to look at someone else and say, “You should use the Enneagram.” But really we can change nobody else but ourselves. Sort of always look at ourselves first and say, okay, what is this telling me about both the strengths I have and the things that trip me up and how can I be aware of that? So I’ll use myself as an example because a solopreneur. And as a four, part of what makes me good at this Enneagram work is depth and I can make space for everybody wherever they are, and I can do that work and I am good at that part. What I am not good at is keeping up on my finances because that feels dumb and boring. Why would I work-

Chris: There’s no depth there.

Stephanie: That’s not where the real juice of life is. But if I know that about myself, then I can catch myself when I’m avoiding that thing that I really need to do. For somebody else, they’re going to be avoiding the hard conflict they need to have with somebody because maybe they’re nine and they’re seeking harmony and they’re avoiding conflict. But for me, this helps show me what I avoid. It helps show me what I might be missing because I am only one vantage point. It helps me kind of see who around me can help me with that thing even though I’m a solopreneur, who can be the person who can help me with marketing, because that’s going to be hard for me.

And it might actually be easier for someone who’s a type three, not that all type threes are good at marketing, but they tend to be better at marketing. So do I know someone in my life that I could outsource to and do I know things that I can develop within myself? And then can I create healthy rhythms according to my type? Those active groups of three, seven and eight are going to tend to burn themselves out as solopreneur because they’re going to just keep moving forward. And sometimes you have to stop and rest. So can I know my rhythms? Can I know my strengths? Can I know the things that trip me up? I would say that’s the best way to use it as a solo.

Chris: That is super good. And so think about maybe smaller leadership teams. You can’t have all nine represented and I love how you said the system sort of took the space. What are some of the things for smaller leadership teams or management teams that are kind of like in the three to four range? What are some of the ways that you would encourage them? Obviously the self-development and things like that. What are some of the other of things where they are going to have gaps? What are some of the other things that you could coach them to consider?

Stephanie: I would think about once we get into the team setting of smaller or larger companies, I would make sure that if you are going to use Enneagram, it’s a safe space to use Enneagram because it’s not just naming strengths, it’s naming weaknesses and stuck points, those are often very tender inside of us. And so anytime we’re now taking it to a group to make sure that it is safe to have those conversations and that it won’t be something used against anybody in the room that they’ve revealed that that’s a struggle for them. And so that’s advice I would give of if you move towards this tool, keep that in mind. And I think one of the helpful points I would say with a small team is probably there’s a lot of problem solving and conflict happening in a small team. If you’re a boots on the ground, 10 people making a business happen, you’ve got to be able to have hard conversations quickly, and those are hard.

That’s why they’re called hard conversations. So knowing something about, okay, if my teammate is a type nine who’s going to not hard conversations and I’m a type eight, who’s going to move right towards those because it’s barrier keeping me from the thing I want to do, that’s helpful to know that about each other. If I’m a two and I’m really looking for belonging and connection, but I work with a six who is trying to figure out all the domino effects. So it feels like that energy’s always disruptive to me, to just have that clarity about those different vantage points that you talked about earlier, starts to do a lot for us to relate better in a group. And so I would think about this less on a strategic level and more on a culture level of are we just pausing to see it from each other’s point of view before I move forward.

Chris: I think it’s huge, the holding space is a practice for sure. So if we’re talking about in the workplace and wanting to create collaborative cultures, there’s kind of the sort of typing exercise that I think is really important. I think it would be really good for you to talk about the typing in some capacity, but where I want to get to is I want get to some of the triads is really, really helpful, but what you did on the tarp. You know what I mean? Because it is amazing to see if you’ve got a great story that can help everybody understand what that really means. That right there I do believe was one of the most eye-opening things to see the movements where people were moving into stress or growth. Because when it comes to collaborative culture decision-making is really a point of friction often, especially the larger that groups tend to get. So talk to us a little bit about typing and the way that you... Because there’s a couple of techniques to do this. We have had the benefit of following your process. What are some of the ways that people can kind of do that on their own to understand themselves?

Stephanie: Yeah, there are multiple, I would sort of warn people, anybody who’s going to leave this podcast in Google Enneagram, be warned about all the things you’ll find when you Google it, because lots of different approaches to how to use this tool and some are better vetted than others. It’s a crowdsourced tool that has a lot of different approaches. So this is my perspective on an approach, which is that testing is not very helpful. It has a place, but we tend to move to it too quickly. So one of the things that happens with Enneagram, as we sort of named in that overview, things that people were seeking and things that tend to trip them up, that is something about our internal world, which takes a little bit of introspective space to find. And that sometimes what happens with any, it’s any personality thing, like what Hogwarts house are you, whatever. People do that stuff all the time.

Chris: Totally.

Stephanie: It’s outsourcing work that’s ours to do. No online BuzzFeed quiz can tell me who I am. I have to just sit down and notice some things about myself. What are my patterns? What do I desire? What do I not like? What do I avoid? What do I keep tending trip on? Just taking that time for introspective work makes the whole process more effective. And so what that means is if people are going to take a test, I recommend that you take more than one test and that you look at the top three results from any of those tests so that you are kind of training yourself to take a test result with a grain of salt because the test isn’t smart enough to know if you are having a bad day or if you are lying to yourself about something.

And so it’s better at narrowing down what you’re not than what you are probably, if you’re consistently testing low in three types, you’re probably not one of those types, but maybe if you keep coming up with one or two at the top, then spend some time looking at those. And so I would say there’s really good easier to grasp onto overview eBooks like The Essential Enneagram by Dr. David Daniels is a good one, that’s a smaller pick it up, look it through, it’s got a little quiz inside of it to start getting a feel. And then once you’ve narrowed it down by a book, by a couple tests, to also then listen to some podcasts, especially panel podcasts are really helpful. So there’s several podcasts out there where they’ll talk to people of a type about something. And if you listen to that panel and you think that’s me, I could be sitting in those chairs. That helps sort of affirm the energy of your type. And if you feel like that panel’s speaking a language that’s not mine, then maybe take a look at another type.

And then as you’re going through that process, what I say is it is helpful to land someplace. Sometimes people say stuck between Enneagram tie, “Oh, I’m not really sure if I’m a one or a six.” So what’s really helpful is pick one of those two and try it on and then trying it on will help you see if you are or are not that type. So I think about this going to the store and buying a pair of pants, so you can try on a pair of pants at the store, you can like them when you look in the mirror at the store. But then if you bring them home and realize that this doesn’t actually fit in my wardrobe, they’re the wrong color or that that was a trick mirror, whatever it is, you would return them. So Enneagram typing has a good return policy. Try it on, that’ll help you see if it really does tell you a good story about how you are in the world. And if it doesn’t, return it and try on another type and eventually you will land on one where you go, oh yes, this fits like a glove, I understand things in a new way about who I am.

Chris: The reality for me was I really did need to try one type on versus another because when I took the test, it was like, you’re totally a three. And it was like, you may be an eight. And when I tried on the three, I’m like, “This isn’t me.” But it took me a little while to kind of get to that point. After I tried it on, I was like, “This isn’t me.” And I think one of the things I don’t want to over complicate the Enneagram, but the subtypes was the thing that sort of revealed like, oh, that’s why I was showing up that way or that’s why that thing was that way. And so one of the benefits is I started to understand a three because I tried it on, so I got deep understanding of what it was like to be a three and the thought processes and all that kind of stuff. So trying it on actually helped me understand threes better.

Stephanie: Which then it helps you see, I am or I am not that type. And trying it on isn’t a waste of time. The goal of Enneagram isn’t to put ourselves in a box and stay there, the goal is to be introspective and to grow and to develop as leaders. And so it’s not wasted time to try on a type that you don’t land on in the end because if you saw yourself there, there’s something in that for you. So I thought I was a two for a while because I could tell that I was outsourcing work, that I needed to do myself. I was helping other people and avoiding something I needed to do for myself. So it wasn’t wasted time for me to see myself as a two because it helped me work on that. And then once I worked on that, I was like, oh, but I’m not a two because my motivations are really different, this actually has something more to do with my attachment style than my Enneagram type. Or with a three, it could easily be you’re in marketing.

Chris: Totally.

Stephanie: You have to be good at three-ish things to be in marketing. And it takes some time to see the difference between those characteristics and the motivation behind it. Because I would think that some of those characteristics, anybody who’s good at marketing would be good at some of those characteristics. The question about whether you’re a three or an eight or a seven or any other type is the why that’s underneath

Chris: Well said. I think as people have sort of landed on a type, I think one of the things, no matter if you’re solopreneur and you’re working with a lot of partners, or if you’re on larger teams, conflict comes up. And conflict resolution I think is something that Enneagram, if you are in a practice where you have done the self-discovery and do you happen to have the benefit of other people doing self-discovery too, and you’ve brought it into the workplace, you have a whole set of understanding and some tools when it comes to decision making, but also conflict resolution. So I would love for you to talk about, what comes to my head is what you did with the tarp because there’s conflict that shows up and you throw a real-life thing in there. So talk to us about that little exercise that you did?

Problem solving tools for teams

Stephanie: So for teams that are willing to embrace the weirdness of a tarp, I have a tarp that has a symbol on it where we can stand on our types and move around in the arrows. So for those who go to the download, there’s a symbol with Enneagram that is one of the things that makes it weird to people. They’re like, “What is this new age thing?” But it’s also really helpful because it has these movements to it that names that we’re not the same all the time, which is another reason it can be hard to find our type, is that sometimes we’ve been in periods of really high stress and we’re showing up as another number because haven’t all of us had the experience that we’re not the same person in stress, that something different in US shifts when we’re under high stress. And so the arrows point out that there’s an arrow moving away from each type that points towards movements that we tend to take in stress, characteristics, behaviors that tend to show up in stress.

And there’s another arrow with pointing towards a type that is more what happens when we feel secure and safe. So our close friends and family probably see another side of us that other people don’t see. Both of those arrows help us in our growth and development. Really what it’s pointing to is underdeveloped parts of ourselves. And if we can work on those arrow points, it can help us feel some of the wholeness that we’re looking for, fill in some of those gaps that we have. And so it’s really pointing to two specific type characteristics to work on. But because they’re things that we move between, then this piece that comes into team dynamics that we work with on the tarp. So everybody stands on their type and we start kind of talking about that elephant and how we’re all seeing that problem that we’re facing.

Chris: And it was a real problem. What is a real topic?

Stephanie: Yeah, ideally it is something like the team is currently facing or recently faced. And I’m actually thinking about a team I worked with that’s not yours, which is probably safer to not pull neutral examples in. But where there was a particular thing that happened on the team that everybody knew had happened, and it was like that one retreat. I feel like teams have that, right? That one time when things really went off the rails. So we talked about that one.

Chris: Wow.

Stephanie: We just went right for that elephant. And we talked-

Chris: This is not my team? Okay.

Stephanie: This is not your team, this is not your team. And what we talked about is, okay, when things were breaking down in that moment in time, how are we each approaching it? And it is sometimes helpful to look in hindsight because then you can see how it played out and then you can bring it forward to how it might play out now. So we had a team of several different Enneagram types represented. So we could first of all just see how many vantage points we had and how different those vantage points were. But then when we talked about stress arrows and movement, one of the things we talked about is that not everybody has the same stress threshold. Try that again, the same stress threshold.

So threes and eights in particular tend to take a long time before they move with their stress arrow because they have such forward energy for accomplishment. It takes a long time for something to take them off that forward energy of accomplishment. And when they do, it tends to be then a big retreat. So the stress number for a eight is a five, and the stress number for a three is a nine. Both of those are very retreating energies, like I’ve pushed and pushed and pushed and I’m out. But that out point doesn’t come for a while. And so what was happening in this team was as people were moving with stress at different points in time, it was changing the dynamics of the conversation, which was a part of what was making the conflict worse because the six that was in the room had a lower stress threshold than the three, which meant he moved to the type three energy while still in this conflict, which aligned him with the team leader.

So if you’ve ever had those moments of there’s alliances being built in this fight, sometimes the arrows can actually help us see why that’s happening because people are switching into other ways of being as a part of that stress response and it’s causing these coalitions and these fractured perspectives. But it also then causes spiraling because all of us are moving, but we’re not really solving the problem as we move into one way or another way. And so I think just seeing that it’s hard to describe what happens on the man, but as soon as that particular, the reason that story comes to mind is because as soon as that person moved, people reacted with their bodies, like they felt that.

And then we had another person move, it was somebody who was a two who moved into the eight stress response and the eight had been the instigator of the thing that was hard. And as soon as that happened, everybody were like, “You two were the ones fighting it out the worst.” That’s why, you both moved into this conquering energy with different but with different ideas of what needed to be conquered. And you could see that that was a part of the answer as to why it got particularly hard with those two. And so it just gave us a map to have a really hard but important conversation about what went wrong there and how to maybe shift that in the future to not get so hard.

Chris: Yeah, the thing that was so helpful is if you’re all standing on this giant tarp with the symbol on it, it’s kind of like the elephants in the center. And as the discussion about that and the progression of that issue, it was almost like there were stages of the issue and you’d be like, all right, now you move. Okay, now you’ve progressed a little more. Okay, now you move. And then the later stage was like, okay, now the eight’s move to timeout. So I think it’s really, really helpful to visualize some of these things because found myself in situations going like, “Wait, what’s happening? There’s movement happening, there are things happening.” And you can’t necessarily always have a point of reference.

And that’s one of the things that’s disruptive to me is that when I have points of reference that I can visualize and say, “I have a signal of what’s going on.” That’s the beauty of having tools. You get the signal something’s happening and you can have a tool belt to go do that instead of being in this emotional tailspin that can happen or these feelings or this feeling state that you’re in, that you’re like, “I don’t know what to do.” And that’s one of the things that I really, really have enjoyed about being able to visualize some of these things. But also a lot of the curiosity I have about this in Enneagram in the first place, it has really helped me see the signal of something that’s happening and go, “Okay, what’s happening? There’s movement here, something’s going on, I’m moving into stress.” It’s huge.

Stephanie: I think whether or not all the listeners decide Enneagrams tool for them, I think what you are naming is so important for team culture. And even if I’m a solopreneur for my own, I’m my own team, that culture’s important too, is to find a way to talk about things that are hard to talk about. Find something you can put in the center that’s not each other, because what’s going to tend to happen in conflict is the other person becomes what you’re aiming at, instead of finding something that makes a third space, a different way to say... And so in this case, it was any gram symbol. Let’s all look at this symbol, let’s all look at our types. It just lowers the temperature a little bit so that we can actually get to the concrete solution and decision making things instead of just the vitriolic energy that can happen.

Chris: It’s huge. To think that when I call the more approachable one, I wonder what are some of the advantages of this over say something else, over a DISC. You know what I mean? I don’t want to be disparaging, DISC is really helpful. I’m an ENFJ when it comes to Myers-Briggs. I want to just do some sort of thinking, not like an Enneagram is better type of moment, but what are some of the advantages and maybe some of the disadvantages when you’re comparing maybe Enneagram to disc?

Stephanie: One of the best ways I heard it described was to think about a house and all of the different ways you could describe a house. You can describe whether it’s Tudor style or mission style. You can describe how the room is painted, you can describe how rooms are decorated. And that there’s ways to think about all these different personality systems as different ways of describing a house. And so you’re going to get different things from those different tools. So as something like DISC is more of the architecture of the house, something like strengths is more about the decor, the interior design of the house, Enneagrams more like the address of the house. It’s like this foundational fundamental way that we are in the world that though we grow and develop and become healthier humans, there are fundamental drivers that Enneagram would say don’t change. And so if we know what those drivers are, we know something about the address of our house that helps us know where we live. And I find that to be a really helpful thing to know.

Chris: Yeah, yeah. Well, I had for you to tell us a little bit about your work. Talk to us about the book and what caused you to be like, I’m doing it, I’m going to write a book.

Creating space

Stephanie: So I wrote a book called Out of the Box & Into the Wild: An Enneagram Journey Through the Triads of Nature. I had to look at it because the subtitle is a little long. But a couple of things were happening that I noticed, one is I as an Enneagram practitioner was getting tired of reading descriptions of Enneagram. My head was tired. I felt like I was getting a lot of things in. We just talked about the triads earlier in the conversation. I felt like a lot was coming in through head knowledge. And as a heart type, I felt like not enough was coming in through my heart and I needed a different kind of pathway, and I also needed more embodiment. And so I was really searching for ways to make Enneagram both more heart oriented and more embodied and not just knowledge because I think that sometimes knowledge keeps us trapped. We just keep learning about our type, which just keeps us stuck in our type and doesn’t help us move forward.

And so one of the ways I found that to work in my own life is with imagery from nature. And there’s a couple of reasons. One, I think in the heart there’s something about beauty that pulls the heart in differently. And there’s also something about imagery and metaphor that pulls the heart in differently. Because for me, one of the reasons I didn’t see myself as a four for a long time is the word envy kept being used to describe fours. And I was like, “I’m not envious. No, it’s not me.” So I closed the door on four, no. And then I heard a podcast where someone used the word longing. And I was like, “Well, sure doesn’t everybody long for things they don’t have?” And then I was like, “Oh, that’s what they’re talking about.”

Chris: Oh.

Stephanie: But I had a block to the word. And I think a lot of us have a block to different words where we might not see ourselves as an Enneagram type, or we might not see something we need to work on because of those defense mechanisms that rise up. And imagery has a different way in because people can find their own words, they can find their own way to relating to the imagery. So if I say, I can say a type two is oriented towards connection, but I can also say a type two is a lot like a river that flows through and provides resources for other people. And if they’re not careful, those resources can dry up. If they don’t stay connected to a source, the water will dry up. Well, that feels a lot different.

Chris: It does.

Stephanie: And then a type two can find their way in that metaphor a little differently than just the words. And so the book has four different images for each type. By the time we get to the end of the book, looking through the lens of the four different Enneagram triads. So every type ends up with an animal and an element of the earth and a plant and a temperature zone. And so my hope is that that creates a kind of a reflective space for people.

And for me, what natural imagery does. I actually have a tattoo in my arm of a heron and an egret because those represent something to me that have been really helpful for my growth that I didn’t find any other way. But there’s egrets that nest at a lake near my house. And every time I see egret, it reminds me of the beauty that is found, not in uniqueness and being alone, but in being one of many because a day feels more special when I see lots of egrets. That’s the work of a forest to feel like my specialness isn’t by me being alone, and I could read a thousand books on that, but I learned the lesson through an egret. And so I wanted other people to find that image for them wherever they live, where they can connect to nature, connect to beauty, and find a different pathway forward.

Chris: It’s incredible. It’s incredible. I thought about how your willingness to share and to make this work because it’s a business. But it’s also, I don’t know, it’s almost like a service, a labor of love in a lot of ways. And so one of the things that I just think about about how not scalable typing can be and how do you think about bringing Enneagram, how would you think about typing? What are some of the things that you’ve done or that you’re exploring doing to make that way more? I don’t need Stephanie and your time, right? We had that benefit where you’re like, “Yeah, you can have my time and I can help you do that and help you get through it.” And it was hugely valuable, but how do you make more Stephanies, you know what I mean?

Stephanie: Well, if I promote myself and my work first. I did create a course to help with that, so it’s called Breakout of the Box, because I do love that idea, I use that language a lot, of Enneagram helps us see the box that we are stuck in so that we can have a map to find our way out. And so it’s meant the typing isn’t meant to be a box, it’s meant to help us move forward. And so that’s a self-paced course that people can do on their own through my website that leads them through a typing process, but at their own pace, in the form of a course.

I would also just say there are a lot of really good Enneagram practitioners out there, and so it doesn’t have to just be me. It is good to vet people, to make sure they’ve got some testimonials, they’ve got some training. There’s a lot of people out there, I would say I’m an IEA accredited professional, so IEA is the International Enneagram Association. Somebody who has the accredited professional status means they’ve done a significant amount of Enneagram training. Look for that badge if you’re going to hire somebody, because that means they’re a trustworthy source, and not all the sources are trustworthy. But I would say there are people out there doing this work, I’ve got the course, I can do a certain number of typing appointments when I don’t run out.

Chris: Not very scalable.

Stephanie: Not very scalable though.

Chris: Yeah. Well, I think we’ve talked about quite a bit today, and I think one of the things that has been awesome, we’ve learned a lot about how Enneagram can maybe help foster better relationships in the workplace and on our teams. But as we let you go, what is one step our listeners can take with them today to help develop the health of their organization?

Developing a healthy business

Stephanie: One of the things that I recommend as a part of the typing process, but really anybody can do it, is something I call practice the pause. That we just go through a lot of life on autopilot. And so there is a surprising amount of power in pausing before we do something and asking ourselves why we’re about to do that. So you’re about to send an email, just pause. Why? Maybe even ask, what am I looking for? What do I need? And it’s like two seconds. But if I just start to practice that pause, I may or may not change my action, but the awareness of why I’m doing something starts to shift how I’m showing up as a leader, because then I’m not looking for something from someone else that I need to cultivate within myself. One of the ways something a pause might recognize is like, oh, am I talking about this book because I’m really proud of it, or because I’m looking for validation? Oh, if I’m looking for validation, then maybe I need to do some work before I talk about this.

So just we have a lot of those examples where if we just pause for a moment, it might shift something and then that’s going to help us see ourselves, which is going to help us find our Enneagram type. So if we’re not used to pausing and asking ourselves why we’re doing something, it’s going to be hard to figure out an Enneagram type. If we start pausing and asking why, then we might start to see some of those patterns. Like, oh, every time I ask myself why, it’s because I want to move forward, maybe I’m an eight. Or every time I ask myself why, I notice that I’m looking for depth and meaning and significance, and oh, maybe I’m four.

Chris: I think, one, that’s amazing. Two, it’s kind of my base question, it’s like if I’m going to do something, as an eight, forward momentum. I ask myself, is this for me or is this for them? And that has helped me a lot because then there’s more questions. It’s like, well, is it really for them? And that right there, that pause, I’m telling you that is a skill that it’s not natural to an eight, just for everybody to know.

Stephanie: I can confirm that.

Chris: Yes, it is a practice to be like, is this for me or is it for them? So if I’m going to give feedback, is this for me or is it for them? If I am going to do a business deal, I’m like, “Is this for me or is this for them?” If I’m going to coach somebody on something or give advice, I’m like, “Is the advice about to give them, is this really for me, for my benefit or is it really for them?” And I try not to be in sort of binary thinking, but it at least helps with the space and to ask more questions about things. So I totally agree that asking those questions creates connection with others, but it also creates connection with yourself and help you understand yourself a lot more.

Stephanie: And a lot of us haven’t been training in this. I love the work of, there was a podcast, I don’t remember how long ago it was, but Susan David and Adam Grant. Susan David talks about emotional agility, and Adam Grant talks a lot about work life, he’s an organizational psychologist. But there were a conversation about emotional intelligence and they were both getting fired up about how it can be taught, and it shouldn’t be considered a soft skill because every workplace would be better if it was considered a hard skill that could be taught. And we can practice these things, we can get better at them. If you think you’re bad at introspection, you haven’t tried it enough. You can learn to pause, you can learn to ask yourself why, you can learn to make more space for other people, but it takes practice.

Chris: It’s well said, and it’s totally true. Well, Stephanie, I really appreciate you coming and sharing all of that you have with us. There’s going to be links to all of the things that you’ve provided in the show notes, and you’re definitely somebody worth promoting. I know you do this because it’s in your heart to help people, and it is so meaningful for you to come and to share with us.

Stephanie: Thank you, it’s great to be here.

Chris: Yeah, thanks for coming.