Season 3 Episode 19
Dr. Olivia Audrey, Ryan Estis and Stephanie Spencer Discussion Panel

Chris Allen: Early on in my development as a leader, I would sort of read a lot of the leadership books, Brené Brown, anything John Maxwell, Patrick Lencioni, read these books. And I think if I just executed on these techniques, I’d be an even better leader. And I think one of the things that I have learned is that there’s a difference between the behavior modification and maybe let’s call it a heart change. And how that heart change is really, really important to becoming a better leader is, it really takes this inner work that’s really required.

Ryan, I think it’s something that would be really helpful for you to kick us off is, I want to maybe call it an activating event. Your story is sort of Fortune 500, chief revenue officer turned person who realized that something needed to change. So I’d like for you to just maybe kick off the conversation talking about what was your aha moment taking you from, here’s where I’m at and here’s where I want to be.

The beginning of transformation

Ryan Estis: I think the aha moment or my big sort of life and leadership transformational moment was one that was thrust upon me. So even after I moved beyond the CRO position and owned a business, things were going exceptionally well from looking outside in. But on the inside I was really struggling. And they coincided simultaneously as things got better in the business, as sort of the dream or the vision was being realized, I found myself suffering more internally.

And it got to a point, 2016 was one of the best years in my business, but at the end of the year, things were falling apart around me, a significant relationship that was ending. And I actually ended up getting sick. I had a tumor in my left bicep, I had an MRI, they thought it was cancer. And I can remember those two weeks between the time that they found the tumor and I had surgery, they couldn’t biopsy it because of where it was located in the muscle. And I had two weeks. And in that two weeks I recognized that I needed to change. That the way I was working, and it was bigger than work, it was what was going on inside of me. And so that led me down the path of some recognition.

I caught a break, it wasn’t cancer, I was very fortunate, but that was a defining moment in my life and I realized, okay, there’s an invitation here. And I didn’t know what or how, but I knew something, that I desired something different. And I think the point you made about behavior modification is spot-on. I mean that resonated with me because I’ve read every one of those same things. But it only helped me with part of the story and the rest of the story really needed to occur inside of me. And I used the phrase inner work also, and I think that’s the right term. And I had to step out of my world and into my interior world to begin that process first of just understanding I didn’t even know what inner work was. That language wasn’t in my lexicon, that was all foreign to me. But that was the beginning of what I think will be a lifelong journey. And I say your darkest moments can be defining ones if you’re awake to the lesson and fortunately I was because that’s work I’ll be doing for the rest of my life.

Chris: I love that, it’s a journey, it’s not a destination. I think I just want to sort of connect with you in the sense that I had a super similar of awakening where I was married for 16 years, four kids. And at the time of that ending, I was joining this place called Heartland, to be expected to lead the marketing function. And I think that the thing about it is it was almost like a defining moment for me was the amount of pain that I was experiencing. And I think emotional pain is probably the most surprisingly difficult pain and super visceral at times pain that you can go through. I know that there’s a lot of physical pain that’s really bad, but at the end of the day, the emotional stuff can be really, really tough too.

And I think that the pain that I was experiencing, I knew that there was something in me that I knew that there was something else, I had observed other people that had experienced maybe better parts of their life. And it was almost like the pain of staying where I was outweighed the pain that I believed it would take to change. And that was sort of like an awakening for me, it was almost like this sort personal life and business sort of convergence. And it was such a serendipitous thing for me to work here because of the type of leaders that have an expectation of the whole person coming to work and doing that inner work is sort of a requirement in a culture like this.

So I want to talk about trauma and maybe some pain and stuff like that. So Dr. Libby, I think it’d be super helpful for you to unpack. Obviously you have been around a lot of people with medical issues that are going through something and your background I think is one that is going to be really helpful for people to understand how they can overcome their challenges and their physical body.

Redefining success

Stephanie Spencer: I think it’s the most important topic of conversation that we can have because I think that we have this focus in our culture and in our society now more than ever, that there’s this outward focus and there’s this outward measurement of success. And that’s really put into us at a very young age, but no one ever stops to question, am I chasing success or do I want to chase fulfillment? And fulfillment is really what we want because success is something different. So I think now in my life, and I use the caption when people are like, “Well, it seems like you have it all together.” I’m like, “No, I’m where I am because went really wrong, really, really wrong and there was no one there to help me figure it out.”

I think that emotional pain has incredible value now. And now if something’s going wrong in my life, I’m like, “Oh, I can’t wait to see what amazing thing is on the other side of this.” But that was not me 20 years ago, that was not me as a child. That was never me until I finally had to sit in my own darkness and go, “There’s no one that’s coming to save you, but you are here to save you and you’re the only one that can save you.” So there’s so many different methodologies and I think things like that that can support, heal this way, heal that way. But the secret sauce is that your journey is individual and no one wants to hear that because it’s easier to subscribe to a system or a methodology or a book. And those can be helpful, but it has to generate from within, ultimately.

So pain has value, as I always say, there are things that have value that we really view as bad in our culture, inflammation, that’s really essentially in your body, you want some degree of inflammation, you want pain, you want trauma, you want experience. Because on the other side of that is expansion. And the universe is always pulling us in the direction of what we knew that we wanted to become when we came here. And I think a lot of the time there’s a glorification of identifying what the pain is and making it bigger than ourselves and our story and our journey and our purpose. So what I tell people when they’re diagnosed with an illness and they have... Because typically when people find me, typically it’s very healthy people or it’s people that really don’t have very long to live, months, and I’m their last stop. And the first conversation that we have is always, are you willing to accept your own role and what got you here?

And that doesn’t mean that you deserve to be sick or you deserve to feel uncomfortable or your family deserves to be going through the stress, but that means that there was an emotive process, that’s the etiology of all disease, is there’s an emotion, there’s a belief. And what is a belief? A belief is just a thought that you keep thinking. So you combine those two things and you get cellular activity. And that cellular activity determines whether it’s going to be disease or whether it’s going to be health. There are ways in which the body really keeps score. That’s why that book was-

Ryan: Such a great book.

Stephanie: That’s the bible for behavioral health, is because it’s true. Because when we eavesdrop on ourselves, we are listening to divine intelligence. And our thoughts sort of are the rudder of the ship of our body. But I don’t care if someone has a month to live, a week to live, a day to live, your mind, your beliefs, your energy is powerful enough to move you in the other direction. And what I found is missing the most, to answer your question, in terms of how to heal trauma, I think to see the value in it is the first step.

Ryan: That’s good.

Stephanie: And when things are happening and you are like ugly crying, and I’ve been there, been divorced, been through the relationship, all the things, right? When you’re ugly crying in the bathroom and you’re like, “This is the end of my life.” The reason it feels so terrible is because there actually is a part of your psychology and your soul that’s like, no, you know that’s not the right answer, and that’s why it feels so awful.

If that was your fate, if that was really where you were supposed to just as I say, lay down, buy a pair of sweatpants and give up on life, then you would be okay with it. But every time you find yourself in trauma, every time you find yourself in pain, it means that there is a conflict between your higher self, your higher knowing, and where you are. So you just got to break it down to the simplest form and figure out how do I move the needle one degree, right? I talk about that a lot with my clients and patients is that one degree, boiling I water can turn it into steam, that can power locomotive. And it seems so tiny. But really the secret sauce is hope. Do you believe that you are bigger than this? And so now I have this mantra and me and my kids use it, that if somebody wants to be rude or if someone wants to try to... Whatever happens in your day, and even if it seems really stressful, we stop and we pause and we say two things.

And the first is you can’t get it wrong and you never get it done, meaning there’s going to be a tomorrow, meaning you fail forward. What do you learn from feeling? Everything. And the second is that, okay, let me ask myself, is this pain? Is this person, is this relationship, is this going to be the thing, after all that I’ve gone through that’s going to end me? Probably not. So you take one step, and that’s our one degree. So I think that breaking it up into bite-size moments helps the pain seem like less of an overwhelm, if that makes sense?

Chris: And I think that restores the agency over your situation, over yourself, things like that. I think The Body Keeps the Score is such a remarkable book, just how he breaks it out. So tough read if you haven’t read it, it’s a remarkable book. The other thing that I think is, some of the stuff that you said was very much like your thoughts and your feelings, when they’re aligned, they do things? It’s very Joe Dispenza, sort of breaking the habit of being yourself kind of thing. I think that’s one of the things that I’m probably 35, 40 books into a transformation because it doesn’t stop. And it was like, I think getting the agency restored and realizing you have power over your circumstances, that doesn’t mean you can control your circumstances, but you can have power over what they’re going to do to you, right?

Taking control of your response

Stephanie: Absolutely. And there’s so many fun facts that you can refer back to, which are kind of science nerdy, but I tell my patients, look, there were about 9 trillion processes that had to go exactly perfect for you to be born. The universe has been rigged in your favor since day one. So you’re here, you’re breathing, let’s get on with it.

Chris: Yeah, it’s so good. Well, one of the things that’s a theme across everything that we’ve said so far is there’s a discovering or knowing of yourself. And I think that that’s one of the things that’s really impressed me about the work that I’ve done with you, Stephanie, is the discovering yourself and how interested you then become and discovering more about other people and understanding other people. So maybe talk to us a little bit about some of the methods and techniques and some of the work that you do that help people go into some of that discovery and then be interested in discovering others that really is the foundation of leadership.

Dr. Audrey: Yeah, I think it goes back to what you were saying about behaviors and that a lot of times personality assessments of any sort are behavior-focused. And Enneagram is inner-focused. And that’s why I like it so much as a tool, is because we can look at someone around us and say, oh, that person really drives forward, or that person has this characteristic. But Enneagram is saying, why? Why are we doing what we’re doing? What lens are we wearing all the time? And we don’t even realize that there’s another lens because we always see things in red and someone else always sees things in orange and green and we didn’t even know there was another color. And I think that there’s something in us that knows that that’s true, but it’s just hard to have the language for it, it’s hard to talk about why we do what we do.

If I put you on the spot and said why did you wear that outfit today? We would kind of know, but it’s hard to define those whys. And so having a system and a tool that helps you define some of your motivations helps you see that set of motivations gives you a certain set of strengths, but also how it gives you a certain set of blind spots and what it is then to collaborate with other people well and say, “Oh, you’re looking at it this way, I’m looking at it that way.” That used to annoy me, it still does a little bit if I’m honest, but I can see the value in it a little bit more as I’m more honest about myself and as I’m more open to how you’re seeing things. So I always talk when I’m working with teams, I always say the goal of this work is clarity, compassion, and collaboration.

What’s going to make a solid team is we can get to those three things, but that’s really not about any particular tool, it’s how you use the tool, which also I think relates to this conversation we’re having is sometimes a company will try to hire me who did DiSC one year, StrengthFinder another year, let’s list them all. And Enneagram is just the next new personality thing that they’re putting on their table. And I say no to those clients because all you’re doing is putting people in a box, you’re not helping them grow. You’re giving them a label and you’re shoving them into that label. And the goal would be pick one of those tools and bias towards Enneagram, obviously, but then use it as a tool for discovery about yourself and the people around you so that you can collaborate more effectively and be more compassionate with one another.

Chris: That’s so good. A part of my journey was the change that happened at work too. So you’re leading a team and I was leading a team and showing up in a way that was maybe creating disconnection. And I think one of the things that I really love about the work that you do is the work that I did with you with the team actually made me want to go do other work to figure out what was really going on with myself and the pursuit of change. And so what are some of the things that you try to help leaders understand about the type of work that you try to encourage them to do in employing some of the tools that you have?

Dr. Audrey: Yeah. One of the things that comes to mind is this story I’ve had, more than one client say that after working with me, they felt open to therapy for the first time and I was like, “Hallelujah. That’s fantastic, please do.” Because it was just a different sort of doorway to inner work than they had before in a business setting, using a tool that can help them grow as a leader, they started to realize, oh, there’s more here to discover. But I think that part of that is the midst of strengths and weaknesses that come together in a package like Enneagram, that it really helps to see the two sides of the coin. So as an Enneagram four, I strive to be unique, I strive to be creative, I strive to do things in a different way than other people are doing them.

There’s a strength to that, there’s a way that creates a sense of adventure, creative vantage points, a lot of artists end up being fours. So not all fours are artists, that’s also to not make it a box, but to also see, oh, but why am I that way? How does that hold me back? I realized a couple of years ago, I was like, “I keep putting myself on islands of my own making and then complaining that I’m lonely.” So it kind of goes back to that autonomy thing like, oh, that striving to be unique is causing me to withdraw. That’s not actually serving me well. And Enneagram helped me see that, which helped me then do that work of belonging and connection. That is related to Enneagram work, but it’s using Enneagram to go, oh, this is showing me I need to go do that and I’m going to come back to Enneagram and it’s going to show me that I need to do that as I see more about what’s driving me.

Chris: Yeah, that’s so good. I think I’d like to talk about connection because I think that that’s what we all really long for and I think that that’s one of the things that I kind of took as subtext to some of the things that we talked about and some of the things that are in your book is the desire for connection and what gets in the way. What are some of the things that you have really seen as themes of the things that really get in the way as it relates to leadership and connection rather than fostering anticipation.

Identifying what gets in your way

Ryan: And so both as an author, but probably why I chose to write about it is because I experienced it personally. I was longing for connection but felt disconnected. And we get in the way of connection without knowing it. That’s why what you said resonated because I had pretty low self-awareness, there were things I wanted, I didn’t realize I was getting in my own way. But what are the things that get in the way? Ego, proving oneself and the striving that you mentioned too on this journey to success, that’s what I was so conditioned to pursue. And I thought if I was successful, I’d be okay or if I was success, that performance orientation. And not even really recognizing where it came from, but the success without the fulfillment started to feel a lot like failure. And so figuring that out ultimately I think was the path to healing and growth and then ultimately meaningful connection. But that’s part of the thesis of the book is it is the inner work, start with self connect and service because it’s really hard to have an authentic high trust, high value connection with someone else when you’re disconnected from yourself.

Chris: Good. I think reintegration’s a huge one because we’ve got parts of this and been broken apart by a lot of things, and I think that that process, it does require a lot of inner work. I want to talk for just a second about something that you mentioned about this sort of external validation. I think that that’s probably a pretty pervasive issue. So if you think about it, I’ve said it before, but criticism of ourselves, if we’re not paying attention, it can get really, really bad. So our inner critic can get really bad. And evidence of that happening can be this outer critic where you’re critical of others, especially leaders have even because positionally you have this ability to be like, “Hey, let me criticize your performance, criticize your work,” or things like that.

And I think one of the things that starts to happen on top of that is this sort of like, okay, well if I can give criticism, people are giving me criticism, I’m critical of myself. There’s this sort of breaking down that happens and then I start looking for evidence that I’m okay. And that’s where the external validation I think really comes from. So external validation, I’m talking about that is this proof like, “Okay, if my scorecard is this, I’m okay.” And I’m associating that with other things. If I get feedback, that’s good, I’m okay. And you were sort of filling ourselves with something artificial. And I think that something that I really like that you said Dr. Levy, is this sort of authentic piece about that. What do you see is related to criticism and external validation that you think really creates disconnection and distance between yourself and others?

Stephanie: Well, I think there’s a lot of things unfortunately in our culture and that support that now with the rise of social media, obviously it can be a great tool, as you said, in its best and highest form, but of course all things, there’s two sides to every coin. I think that isolation, I think feeling like you are the only one struggling with this particular issue because the number one predictive factor for illness of any kind, mental or physical is isolation, is feeling like you are alone in what you are doing. That’s why we see people that heal better in communities. It’s also why we saw the rise of mental illness and lockdown is because we really had to go within ourselves and we found out that our foundations that we thought were so solid really were not. Because we had been chasing this external validation, which is the ultimate elusive goalpost. Because you really can’t stand on your head in enough different ways to make everyone happy. So I think we know that’s just a losing game.

And the number one thing that I discovered about myself that I share with others and it’s transformative is as soon as you can become comfortable with your insecurities, no one can ever use them against you again. So that is step one. Start there, unpack, make a list, make an actual list of all of the things that are bad about you or that you think suck or all the reasons why you’re that relationship failed, whatever you need to do, really unpack that and then go through bit by bit and understand that these are really common themes of just being human and having emotion and thinking.

And oftentimes we like to encapsulate that to think that the things that we’re going through are entirely unique to us. They’re not, the circumstances are they differ, but human beings we’re herd animals. So chances are there’s people that have experienced that to some degree. And when we share that and when we understand that everybody’s sort of going through their own undulation of three core things, and that is that people want to be seen, they want to be heard, and they want to be validated for their existence on this planet. That’s why we’re in relationships, that’s why studies have shown we choose to marry, we choose to have long-term partners. Ultimately, we want to witness to our life. And our children are that to some extent, they go off and have their own life. So we have to become our own witness to our own life. When you are fulfilled in that capacity, you then bring that to the workplace. You then bring that to the partnership, you then bring that to every other part of your life.

Then I think it’s a matter of just being open to each relationship and each dynamic is so case-specific. And very rarely, very rarely, and I would love your insight on this, is it a right, wrong, zero-sum total of I’m right, and this person’s just a jerk. It’s not that. The world is just you pushed out, it’s your perceptions about yourself, it’s all of the things. So the universe does this super cool thing where it’s always playing tag and it’s like, hey, you know that thing you were thinking about? We’re going to have that show up in your dating life, we’re going to have that show up in your workplace, and then you get to deal with it and sift through it.

So for me, I think that just understanding that as a human being, every single person wants to be seen, heard and validated. When you have that in the back of your mind, it brings you out of isolation, you understand that that’s all that we’re trying to do here on this planet. We’re just trying to make our lives matter and have our lives be witnessed by people to feel like it matters. So it gives you empathy and it also gives you direction and clarity on your purpose, I think.

Chris: That’s so good, what are your thoughts on that?

Being seen, heard and validated

Dr. Audrey: Well, I’m thinking of the way that we assume other people’s if onlys are the same as ours and that Enneagram would say whatever that sentence is for you, if only blank, then I will be blank, is going to be different for different Enneagram types and different life circumstances. And what I’m looking for in being seen, what was it seen, heard and validated?

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Audrey: I’m looking to be seen, heard and validated differently according to my Enneagram type, so I’m not looking for the same thing. So I might be working with an employee or a teammate and think what the kind of validation I’m really looking for is a trophy. So I’m going to give trophies to my team. But my team members might have a different thing that makes them feel validated. Do I know what they’re looking for? What it feels like for them to be seen and to feel good and for everybody individually to watch for the ways that the if onlys trip us up. So someone might feel like if only this thing were more perfect, if it were better, if it were a higher standard, then I’ll finally be happy. If only this relationship were more secure and I were more needed, then I’d finally be happy.

If only I got that position, then I’d be happy. If only my true identity were really being lived out, then I’d be happy. If only I became an expert on something, I’d be happy. If only if everybody in my life were cared for and then I’d be happy. If only I was enjoying every new experience, then I’d be happy. If only I were moving forward and past that thing where I’m stuck, then I’d be happy. If only things were more peaceful and calm, then I’d be happy. Those are the nine different Enneagram types. Those are nine different if onlys.

So I want to be seen for something different if my if-only is one of those, I want to be seen as being unique, if I’m a four, I want to be seen as being powerful, if I’m an eight, I want to be seen as being supportive, if I am a two. And so that’s when I’m going to feel it is when you see me for those things. And that is both my strength. And again, that’s my blind spot because I have to bear witness to myself in that I can’t look for that from you. I can’t expect you to see me as peaceful and then I’ll be happy, I have to learn to be driven differently.

Chris: So good. I love that you just went through all nine. I was like,

Dr. Audrey: I had to find a way to slip in.

Chris: Yeah, you did. I think it’s something that you can tell, I got super curious about Enneagram and a lot of other things. And I think if there’s anything that started to develop in me was in my personal life, I was developing compassion towards myself and the mistakes and the ugly parts and all that kind of stuff. And at work, I’m sitting here learning about other people and learning how to reconnect with myself with self-compassion and learn how to connect with others with empathy. But ultimately I think that is probably the most powerful connector of others is the curiosity about others and understanding them that leads to empathy. And I think this is something that you’ve got-

Ryan: Cultivated that in you, that’s just a beautiful example because this desire that she spoke eloquently about, was it seen, known and validated?

Stephanie: Seen, heard and validated, yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. And it’s interesting because I use seen, heard, understood and valued.

Stephanie: Similar.

Ryan: Very. And so you’re on this path of this curiosity is awakened inside you to look inward. And now you have compassion for yourself, which begins to flow outward at work in the form of empathy and being able to understand someone and see it from their perspective, which is the catalyst for human connection. Empathy isn’t a soft skill, some of the hardest, most important things we can cultivate in ourselves as leaders, and you can learn it, this conversation, if only I had it 15 years ago, this conversation’s the catalyst for doing that because as that’s awakened in you, then you as a leader are able to give the people around you the feeling of being seen, heard, understood, validated, valued, and that then influences culture and a sense of belonging and a sense of connection and camaraderie. And you’re part of something and you’re doing that, yes, as a service to yourself. But then look, because you said it was spiraling out and that’s the key to me.

Chris: Yeah, 100%.

Dr. Audrey: Can I comment on that?

Chris: Yeah, of course.

Dr. Audrey: So I think it was Adam Grant and Susan David had a conversation about empathy is not a soft skill, and that is one of the best things we can do for leaders is change that language. Empathy can be learned and we will have better leaders everywhere if people stop calling it a soft skill. And so I just want to validate that because it really is, you can learn it, you can learn it.

Ryan: I’m coaching someone right now, a leader who’s desiring to improve. And he said to me, the feedback, right, I am getting this feedback. And he said, “The empathy gene was just left out of me.” His name’s Ryan too. I said, “No, you actually can learn it.” I did, you did. And I think that there’s kind of a, oh, okay, maybe I can and that sort of awakening. And I think some of what we’re talking about is the path into that knowing ourselves better, and that serves others.

Chris: 100%. And I think one of the things that, we’ve talked about this journey not being a destination. And I think if there’s any evidence is that you don’t have to have this work done in order to start employing these things. And I think one of the things that’s really, really helpful is with the work done as an individual, you can start to share some of these things. And I think the number one thing that you can do to start showing up with this stuff is holding space for vulnerable moments. Because I do think that there’s a power in vulnerability, and one of the ways that I started to do this with teams was there’s an exercise that I would do. It’s actually the Johari Window. Basically, there’s things that we know about ourselves that only we know about. There’s things that we know about ourselves and others know about, and then there’s things that we don’t know about ourselves that others know about. And these are our blind spots.

And so one of the things that we do is as a team, and this is what I do with my leaders, is everybody gets a sheet of paper for every person in the room. And it’s like, okay, give each person the biggest compliment and then give them the thing that if they made this one change, would sort of advance the team in this way. And I think that that’s one of the things is even just holding space to have that conversation, one, it’s really vulnerable to do that with people that work. But you as a leader being able to receive that feedback, to give compliments and to receive that feedback and for it to happen with peers. I’ve seen that kind of open up a totally different dialogue over the next couple of quarters. Because what happens out of that is we say, okay, we’ve synthesized everything that everybody has said after we read it all out and we say, here’s my one thing, I commit to do this one thing for the betterment of the team.

And I think I’d love to talk about commitments and accountability because that one thing, that vulnerable moment turns into this one thing that turns into a commitment. So when you think about things you commit to yourself, what are some of the things that you’ve maybe seen, and this is up for anybody, what are some of the things you’ve seen when you’ve maybe broken a commitment to yourself?

Committing to yourself

Stephanie: Yeah, I can certainly speak to that. Obviously I think the first step is like it’s that self-loathing, right? It’s like this is who you are, and I think that that’s really dangerous vernacular. This is who I am. Now if I hear somebody say, “This is who I am.” That’s a red flag for me across the board because it’s like, okay, I’ve now identified that I’m this static version of myself that has all of these factory defects that I’m going to project out into the world.

So now I ask people to swap that out with that’s who I was or this is who I’m becoming because we’re always in this fluid state. Because I know for myself, I am the hardest on myself. No one is harder than me. That’s why I always say I have a really thick skin when it comes to social media and interviews because there is nothing that anyone can say. And by the way, if you’ve had small children and you’re a boy mom and you ask them how you look, they’re going to give you an honest answer. So I’ve raised two boys, so I’m immune to it. But immediately that’s self loathing. It’s this is the pattern, I’m never going to escape the pattern and nothing feels worse than hopelessness, that this is who I am and this is who I’m destined to be, and I can’t evolve out of that. That’s what happens when you break commitments to yourself.

Because commitments are an ideology that you want to do better, that’s the goal. And I hate the word goal, but that’s the cycle out. And when we break that, it’s almost this self-validation of no, turns out you’re not that person, turns out you’re not there yet. And I think that ultimately we do it as a form of validation in a negative sense of, no, stay where you are, because the mind wants to keep us where we are. It’s the heart that’s always leading us. So the self-loathing for sure, for sure.

Chris: Any other comments on breaking commitments to yourself?

Ryan: I’ll build on a piece of what she said, just this idea back to leadership of having that identity then, that this is who I am. And then you use the word and then projecting that outward, in the absence of self-awareness or that knowing or a conversation or the ability to talk about how that feels, what happens at work then to somebody who feels that way? Or to a whole team of managers who feels that way? Or to a board or a C-suite that’s walking around feeling that way. And there’s probably, and you’d know the research probably better than me, about a correlation to really high achievers and people, right?

Stephanie: 1,000%.

Ryan: And so what happens at work? And that’s why so many people are struggling now with feeling connected or feeling safe or feeling seen. And so the exercise you talked about, part of what you’re cultivating is a place where people feel safe. They feel safe to actually express that truth. And they feel safe then to receive feedback because they know it’s in the interest of their wellbeing and to their benefit. And then a few months into that, people look forward to the feedback because they’re getting honest with themselves and they’re learning and they’re growing and it’s done in this container of safety and support. And then you have something different and I think that’s the path.

And so just even these conversations about commitments, everything she said resonated, I’m the same way, super hard on myself, super self-critical, my voice is the most critical voice. And so immediately go into self-loathing if I break a commitment. But to have a conversation where it’s just dissipated, where even the writing it down, your first exercise, “I hate it when I break commitments and I don’t like that part about myself.” And because it diminishes that criticism because we all break commitments sometimes, I do too. And me too. And I think that sort of back and forth actually can be a catalyst for accountability.

Chris: That’s where I was going next.

Ryan: Yes. Because what empathy looks like is not, hey, you missed your numbers this month, and that’s not like you, but we don’t accept that. And so next month there’ll be proba... it’s, hey, Chris, man, you missed your numbers this month. Shut the door, man. Are you okay? Is everything okay? Is anything going on? So we can talk about it, brother? That’s such a different context in the way to lead what’s in the service of actually both the person than ultimately the performance of the team.

Chris: And I think that there’s something meaningful if you are in a pattern of breaking, making commitments to yourself is a big deal, but then breaking commitments to yourself is a huge deal. How do you deal with yourself when you’ve broken a commitment to yourself? And there’s some people that would let themselves off the hook or afraid to hold themselves accountable. And it really is a signal of your own self-accountability and your own participation or agency in your transformation. One of the things that I do is there are a few commitments that I have as it relates to candidly sobriety. So I have consequences, if I end up breaking that sobriety, I have consequences for myself. They have three tiers. And I have a 24-hour tell rule. And these other things that I put in place that my executive coach knows about, that the men’s group that I’m a part of knows about. And I think that that is one of the things that if you break a commitment to yourself and you destroy yourself over that, that’s a sign. That’s a sign because you’re going to show up to other people that way too. And that’s the kind of stuff that breaks sort of the connection.

Dr. Audrey: And I think that highlights the importance of making the right commitments to yourself because I feel like there’s probably people listening to this who be like, okay, my commitment to myself is to never eat carbs again. Whatever thing it is, that’s like, you’re going to feel that commitment because it’s the wrong commitment. Do I know myself well enough to know what kind of commitment is life-giving to me? So I was in a conversation with a group where I was like, “Oh, the problem is I know that routines help me, but I hate routines.” And that somebody, thankfully it was a group situation, we learned from each other and somebody said, “Well, what if you thought of it as a ritual instead of a routine?” And I was like, “Oh.”

Ryan: Really good.

Stephanie: I was like, “That changes everything.” And a ritual gave me permission to say, it doesn’t have to be every day, it can be three days a week, and I can still hold that ritual. And that gave me the freedom to commit differently to myself, to have more of that empathy and compassion to the commitments I was making to be in line with who I am, to say I’m not a person who’s going to do the same thing at 7:00 AM every day. If I try to make that commitment- ... to myself, I would fail it because that’s not who I am. So do I know myself well enough to know, but that doesn’t mean I can’t do anything that’s in that direction, taking that step. So what helps me take that next step. And I want to also highlight that activity you do with your team. I think what makes that powerful is I hear you tell the story is that you are participating in it.

Chris: 100%.

Stephanie: And that makes all the difference for that being a safe space where people can hold themselves accountable and be committed to something, because if the leader goes first, then the team will follow. If that’s an exercise where the team is doing it and the leader’s watching, now it’s not safe.

And now I’m going to feel that commitment because doing it further, some sort of should or supposed to or it’s attached to my merit increase or any of those things is not going to build a healthier team.

Chris: So good. I treat that moment like it’s a Knights of the Roundtable kind of moment. Every time, the age-old, I don’t know if it’s myth, legend or if it actually happened, but the King Arthur and all the knights, when they would enter the room of the Roundtable, they had to leave their swords outside.

And the reason that they sat at a round table is the king and everyone around the table were peers when they sat down at the table. So all the authority and all of that stuff went away and all the weapons went away. And it was like you’re sitting around the table and the leader is a peer.

Everyone is a ... there is a room of equals, and everything that we decide and hear, we commit to and it shows up out there. And there are two different worlds. And I think that that is one of the things that has helped me show up as more approachable is there’s a commitment there that we operate the ritual of the round table moment and doing this thing, we’re all peers. I can take the hard feedback and when we exit, I’m not weaponizing or using it as a shield. And I’ve heard you talk about that a lot. I think you should talk about that.

Stephanie: Oh, that when we are looking to grow and want to use Enneagram as a tool that I talk about, what we want is clarity, compassion, and collaboration. And what we don’t want is to use it as a box weapon or shield, because that’s the most common way that people end up using any sort of personality assessment as, oh, I’m only this way, back to your, we’re not stuck, we’re not static, or ugh, that person’s only that way. That’s more the weapon. But the most common thing I think that people do is a shield. Don’t expect me to not be an asshole. I’m just an eight. No, no.

Chris: Coming from an eight, I maybe have said that in prior versions of my [inaudible 00:02:36].

Stephanie: So to say, okay, I know that I can be an assertive person. How do I work on being assertive in a healthy, compassionate way? That’s my job if I’m an assertive person, not to just be like, well, don’t expect anything other than that from me because that’s really when it’s ... When I use it as a shield, then that becomes a weapon against everyone around me.

Chris: So true. So true. What are some of the things, a lot of what we’re talking about is becoming the best version of ourselves. I’d love to just hear from each of you, what are some of the things that you do to become the best version of yourselves? What are sort of your secrets? You know what I mean? You want to go first?

Dr. Audrey: I feel like I got all the [inaudible 00:03:19]. So for me there are some, and this is relatively new, so again, I’m not talking about and the sort of cadence that I give myself and that I would invite everyone, specifically women to give themselves and to tell themselves is I’ve never been this version of Olivia before.

This is the first time that this version of Olivia has ever walked through the world. She’s learning about this and this and this and this. To your point of I’m like, I feel brand new, I feel like a 5-year-old most days where I’m like, wow, I can’t even think about the rules that applied to me 20 years ago or 15 years ago or five months ago because I’m just shifting and changing.

And so to give yourself that divinity I think is really helpful that you’ve never been this version of yourself before. It also makes it really exciting instead of exhausting when you uncover different parts of your personality. But for me, one that’s been in place for quite a while is body movement, is a non ... I will not compromise that. I have to move my body.

I tell my clients, you have to sweat every day. It’s good for you. It’s good for your mental health. So for me, it’s body movement in some way, shape or form. That is my covenant to myself. And the big reason behind that is I have a lot of energy. I’m an energetic person as we all are.

And I feel like if I don’t move that and if I don’t sync my body with my mind, with my heart, then I’m like in my head or then I’m jittery or we have to have a conference call between all of us at some point in the day. I don’t know how that happens, but it has to happen. We have to phone it in. And so that’s what starts it.

But I am a really, really ritual centric person. So my daily ritual is, and I’m still trying to get better on this, the first 10 seconds that I realize I’m waking up in the morning anywhere in the world, I stop myself and I really move into superlatives. So I’ll be like, this is the most comfortable bed I’ve ever slept in.

Oh my gosh, I have a roof over my head. The things that seem so dumb and simple to people, I really squeezed the juice out of. I pre-prime my brain to be seeking gratitude and things to be grateful for every single day before I get out of bed. I’m very list driven. I’ve recognized that about myself about five years ago. And that that lists really, really help you, Olivia.

Otherwise I’m just like a crow that sees something shiny and that’s a side quest and that’s a side quest. And so to be effective, we need lists, not sexy, but it is discipline and discipline is not sexy, but discipline is one of the biggest tools that you can give yourself. It’s in my opinion, one of the highest acts of love and respect that you can give to yourself. And everybody thinks that discipline’s a punishment. It’s not. Discipline’s the ultimate agreement with yourself.

It’s ultimately saying, no, you kind of need to work on that. So we’re going to put our focus there to make sure that what you want and the desired outcome that you know has to move through these channels, we’re going to hold you accountable for that. So body movement, gratitude, lists, eating well. For sobriety, I am not in sobriety myself, but I’ve found that as I’ve gotten older, I just really love waking up and feeling great.

It’s just life is so precious that I don’t want to waste a second. I don’t want to waste a second or a Sunday morning on my couch feeling like garbage because way too much and those things will happen. I want people to celebrate their life and live joyfully, but for me, I want clarity more than anything else. I want clarity and I want to be in it. I want to be in life.

And what’s interesting for me is that I really was that worrywart child my entire life. And I was like, if I had homework, my mom will tell you if she watches this, she’d be like, you had to come home and get it done because it was looming over your head. And now it’s this really cool thing where I’ve shifted into this more carefree perspective where I’m like, yeah, it’s okay.

It always ends up okay. So I’ve allowed more joy in my life by being looser about the things that I know don’t need to be as rigid, if that makes sense.

Chris: That’s good.

Dr. Audrey: So yeah, that’s kind of how I try to move through my days. I mean, I am my human just like everybody else. So I think that when those times show up where I’m so out of alignment or I’m so out of myself, I’m like, yeah, this is not where we live and we’ve got a course correct.

Yeah, but those are kind of my covenants for how I become a better person. And I’m a big fan of the long game. I don’t expect short-term results. I expect momentary glimpses into who I’m becoming. And that’s where I sort of unpack and like I said, squeeze the juice out of it.

Chris: So good. So good. Go for it.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean it really resonated with me and I’ll speak, you used the word divinity. I’ll use the word grace. If the question is becoming the best version of ourselves, it’s not a linear process and change, transformation, meaningful growth, there might be setbacks or discoveries.

And so to give ourselves the grace to know that, hey, I’ve made this big commitment to becoming a better version of myself, that’s just, sit in that for a second, that’s beautiful and honor that. And the process of becoming is going to be probably at times challenging, but learning to understand that’s where the beauty is, that’s where the growth is.

So appreciate some challenge change, adversity, discomfort. And a previous iteration of me would try to avoid those things at all costs. That’s uncomfortable over here, that doesn’t feel good. Get me out of that. That conversation I should have. I’m just going to avoid that for a while. I think that’s human nature. So this path of sort of curiosity and self-discovery and going inward, it’s a beautiful place because there’s a lot there, but it’s a process.

And so for me to get help or to support the process, I love learning. I wish we were going to be together tomorrow and do this again because I’m learning so much from three seekers and light workers and people that I can connect with so easily. And so making sure that I have those people in my life, whether it’s for a movement piece, having a trainer or having a life coach, a spiritual advisor, people that I can sit with and soak up their knowledge and expand and grow with.

I also as someone who works a fair amount and travels a lot and has a pretty busy schedule, I also think there’s incredible value in stepping into out of my routine or life and into some immersive container of expansion, whether that’s a retreat, a conference, an experience. I mentioned previously, the Hoffman process was a great beginning point for me, a catalyst for that.

And that’s eight days of out of that world into this world. And I think some real expansion and unlocks can come in that kind of immersive learning. You don’t get a chance to do that often, but it’s a gift I try to give myself once or twice a year. So those are some of the things.

Chris: I love it. What about you?

Stephanie: On a weekly basis I have a pretty robust to-do list system because I have realized I think I’m on the spectrum of ADHD someplace. If I do not write it down, it will spin and I have to write it on paper and I have to write it in a reliable spot and that helps me.

I may or may not actually achieve everything on the list, but I need to do that early in the week to give me an orientation for the week. On pretty regular basis in the morning, I do two things in a journal. One is I set a timer with a nice singing bowl timer because that always feels better. And I write down a list of everything that comes to mind that I desire and I don’t filter that list. So that can be world peace and it can be a chocolate chip cookie, it just can be all of it.

But I find that a lot of us were raised in traditions where we don’t embody and own our desire and that affects a lot about looking for things in the wrong place or just not seeing what I’m looking for. And I just allow myself to see what I want and get it all out.

And again, then it’s out of my body and out of my head and onto the paper, and then I just can release it and in some ways let it affect that to-do list and in some ways let it go to the universe. And then on another page, I set a timer and I follow Elizabeth Gilbert’s wisdom. She does something called Letters from Love, and she just writes at the top of a piece of paper love, what would you have me know today? And free writes in response to that question.

And I think that those two things together orient my day differently when I take the time to do them because I’m both owning that I want something, but also that someone loves me, that there’s a universe that loves me and those side-by-side kind of give me a different trajectory.

And then the other thing I would own for my own ritual need on a daily basis if I can is to get outside. I think there is a lot of power in the beauty of nature, in the touch grass movement that-

Chris: Kids.

Stephanie: You need to just need to touch grass. There’s truth to it though. When we actually touch grass, when we remember we are a part of a natural world, there’s such ways of orienting that. I just had this experience where I have on my upper arm, I have a tattoo of a heron on one side and an egret on the other side because those two birds have been really meaningful to me.

And what I find is those birds follow me. And I was just in Oregon last week and I was kayaking down a river and there was an egret like dancing with the boat, or sorry, a heron like dancing with the boat. I went on a run this morning and there was an egret along the river. And so now I feel like I’m a part of a universe because I have those things that are with me no matter where I go. And that just makes everything feel a little different with that intentional connection to the natural world.

Chris: That’s so good. That’s so good. I think one of the things that I do is I just try to stop and pay attention. There are things that happen all around at all times. There’s things that I’m feeling in my body, things that I’m feeling in my emotions and trying to process those and do something with them, that discharge really happens.

It could be writing something down, could be going for a workout. It could be one of the things that I like to do is just I’m a note sender, so if I’m sitting and paying attention, I tend to think of somebody. And so, one of the things that I do is I’ll send a text message or call them or something and just let them know, here’s why I appreciate you.

This is the reason that I know that you were put in my life to contribute in this way, and I hope that I’m contributing in a way to you. I’m just a note sender quite often. And that’s one of the things that I think that I want to be seen and I want other people to know that they’re seen as well.

So that’s one of the things that I do. But one of the things I loved about everything that everybody just said was the things you chose to say that you do to become the best version of yourself was stuff you do regularly and often and in routine. And I think that that is something that’s really powerful. That’s something that I just learned literally just sitting here listening to all of you say those things and something that I do as well.

And a lot of you pick stuff that you do daily. And I think that that is one of the key pathways to becoming the best version of ourselves is what we do every day. And I love the thoughts and emotions being in alignment, actually creating something powerful. And if you’re doing that every day, you can sort of transform the way that your life is.

What is something maybe just to sort of wrap up the conversation, because remember, this is about the conversation that we’re going to have with another group is about taking what we’re doing here and I don’t like the word, but it’s really the best descriptors, institutionalizing these things in organizations. Like Josh for example, across this whole portfolio.

You know what I mean? These are the things that I think are really good. So I wanted to start with what happens with the individual, but I want close it on sort of becoming the best version of yourself. But then what are some of the things that you do or have seen other leaders do to become the best leaders?

Ryan: I heard this from one of my original teachers, this idea of routines or rituals that he said that those things are the foundations for success and fulfillment. That’s why I love the word practice. We call our businesses like Josh, we call them practices. And yoga is a practice, right? Meditation is a practice.

It’s not perfect. We’re practicing and we’re getting better as we go. So thinking it that way, but that thoughts and feelings integrated, you mentioned that. And to me, that’s what congruence is. And congruence is a force multiplier when you’re congruent and you get that energy around you. So we’ve taken the habit of closing a lot of our meetings with insights and reflections, thoughts, feelings, and so we’ll go around and say, okay, we’re going to do insights. We’ll have an insight, which is a thought and then a reflection is a feeling.

And so we sort of try and integrate those at the closing of a session or we’ll do them to kick off the session. We could go around and do one word. I’m anxious, I’m scared, I’m nervous, or I’m excited, I can’t wait. And so just those and institutionalizing a lot of those routines and rituals, I think that create the words I use, human-centered leadership, create a human-centered culture or human-centered organization where people feel like they’re part of something larger than themselves.

They recognize that they’re seen, heard, understood, and valued here and that they’re called to contribute all of themselves and safe to do it. And we’re trying to, we’re not perfect, but we’re building an organization that way and I think our results are pretty good. But more importantly than that, I think it’s a place where we all can become better versions of ourselves and that’s pretty cool.

Chris: I love it. I love it.

Dr. Audrey: Very similar. So I practice this theory called corporate consciousness when I work with large organizations and essentially it breaks down organizations and large corporations in terms of the family unit. And I think a lot of times we are fed or we tell ourselves, I don’t want to do something for somebody else unless I’m getting something, and that’s sort of been indoctrinated in the last decade or so.

But actually human beings really want to be of service. At our core, we want to be of service. So if you look at the family unit and the parent has communicated to ... the father has communicated to the son, boy, when I’m not here, you’re the man of the house. That boy takes that responsibility very literally, and he rises to the occasion.

And the mother too. It’s about the things that we communicate about the specific strengths, skill sets and attributes that that one individual contributes to the team and how much everybody else in the unit is relying on them, and that allows people to rise to their full potential.

It also allows leaders to uncover skills that they may have missed, just pegging them at, they’re great at HR, their great at marketing, whatever. When you really get to sit down with the individual and have a conversation with them about, look, I really love the fact that you are always there. You’re supportive in meetings. You always have great ideas. Thank you for speaking up.

That gives them the floor to then open up and share more, and then you can identify, yeah, well, I love doing that. Actually, I’d like to speak more. Okay, great. Then I can parlay that and bring you into a breakout group. When we have those conversations, when we can identify that, and I know that this is an unpopular opinion, but it’s true, we like to classify work life balance. It’s all life. We’re not dead when we go to work.

Some of us feel like it, but it’s all life. We get to decide the balance. So corporations and organizations, I think are now seeing with employee turnover and retention that people want to be happy when they come to work. That is an outdated paradigm that you have to hate your job and that it has to suck.

Absolutely the data has shown that when employees are happy and fulfilled, when they’re seen, heard and validated, and when they know that they’re playing a specific role in the family unit, they will not only meet the expectations, they will absolutely exceed it, and your revenue will increase, morale will increase, all these positive happy side effects occur.

So that would be my suggestion. That is my suggestion with every leader that I work with is identify the strengths. Try not to focus on the weaknesses if you can, because ultimately that’s our ultimate currency is attention. That’s why we pay attention. So highlight the strengths and then typically those weaknesses will massage themselves most of the time out of the way.

Chris: I have, I’d say an analog to that, something that I do, I call it a management framework, but it’s really also a hiring framework is I’ve seen people, they look at a job and they’re like, yeah, this is my job and there’s a job description and here’s what I’m going to be paid, and this is the agreement between us and here’s the skills that are required and all that kind of stuff.

There’s this adjacent thing that’s the role people tend to play on a team. And so there are producers, entrepreneurs, integrators and administrators, and pretty much everybody on the team, I help them understand the role that I see them best playing that’s different than the function I’m asking them to do. And it’s like my producers, these are people that tend to want to color outside the lines to get the milestone, hit the milestone, hit the goal.

They’re willing to do that stuff, they want to get stuff done. And you’ve got entrepreneurs, this role tends to be the ideator. These are people that are great to collaborate with, but maybe don’t give them the here’s the finish line and you got to go get the project done, but the ideator to help be resourceful and all that kind of stuff. Then you’ve got integrators.

These are people that are great at connecting people or great connecting systems, and you have the administrators, which are people that are great with lists. It’s like if there’s a train, there’s the schedule, there’s the checklist and all of the stuff that it has to do to actually run and run on time. The administrators are good at that, and what I’ve seen is when people see their role on the team, because I tend to play the entrepreneur, and so I need producers and administrators and integrators around me.

And so I try to make sure that everyone understands that there’s a role I’m asking them to play, and I see their strengths in that role that’s above and beyond or adjacent to the function I’m asking them to deliver. I’ve seen that people identify with that role and I know, but I’m the producer, I’ve got to do the thing. It’s like, exactly. That’s a great way to sort of identify with an extra sort of force multiplier on the team is the role that they’re playing. So that’s one of the things that I do. What about you?

Stephanie: Well, I’m thinking about the power of taking what we talked about for individual growth and thinking about it from a team standpoint and saying, what are the daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly things that are rhythms that help our team stay healthy? So like the power of a yearly team retreat someplace, whatever budget people have where there’s just time away, where you can do something a little different in the time away.

Where there’s in every meeting having the ritual of a check-in and a checkout question where you come in and you are seen as a human before we start tasks. So two words about how are you coming into the room today? Someone says nervous and anxious, you have the whole meeting, but they had space to say that first, so that gives you a moment of compassion for how they’re going to be in that meeting. And then after the meeting, it gives you the ability as a boss to say, hey, you want to talk about how you checked in today?

Like, you’re doing all right? So it doesn’t even have to take very much time out of the work to do that human first kind of stuff and to say what will give us that space to see each other well and to hold space for one another well. And recognizing, I think, you know what, I think the thing I see people make the mistake of with Enneagram a lot is just wanting to use it as a way to have other people change.

And so realizing that it really does make us better leaders as we change ourselves, that does have an impact on the team because it affects how we show up and learning those things in those routines of our life, it does have an impact. You can’t always draw a straight line of, because I did that journaling in the morning, my team met its marks, but there is a line there. I trust that there is a line there when we are doing that individual work, it does make our teams better and it does make us better leaders.

Chris: That’s so good. Are there any final thoughts or anything that y’all want to share that didn’t necessarily come up in the conversation or you want to highlight for just a second to kind of put a cap?

Stephanie: I’d love to go back to what you said about being a note sender. This might be too personal, but-

Chris: No, go for it.

Stephanie: ... I’m thinking about the power of having ways to celebrate growth because knowing, so this is where I’m revealing your Enneagram type, but we’ve talked about it before, but knowing you were an eight, my instant thought was that’s your line to type two, which is a show of growth. That, that security point is integrating into your life.

So if I was working with you and I saw you doing that, I would be like, oh my gosh, Chris, that’s actually huge that you are doing that. That is such a sign of where you are compared to where you were. And to find ways to have a framework, a language where we can spot that in one another and because so often it is how do I need to keep growing instead of how have I already grown.

Chris: So good. This was an accidental thing, but there was this hard decision that I had made and needed to share some feedback with somebody and I tend to want to stay connected to people because I’d have a conversation about this, but for some reason I was like, I’m going to write this down. And I’m like, I have no idea why I would write this down and send this via email, because that’s not me.

And I started to get into the shoes of this person and they’re probably listening at this moment, they’re probably laughing knowing that I’m talking about them, but I sort of broke everything down and I was like, how would they want to hear this? So the really interesting part is I sent it via email. I was super nervous, but before I sent it, I called this person up and I said, "I’m about to send you something.

You know that I do not send feedback in writing like this, and I don’t want you to take it by surprise, but I want you to read it and then I want you to go through all of it and then I want to have a conversation with you and I want you to tell me how you sort of received it." And I don’t know, a couple, I’m going to say 20 minutes later, the person sent me a note and said, I agree with everything you said.

This is one of the things, blah, blah, blah and I think we need to talk about more. Later that night, I get an Instagram clip from them that said, here’s how to give feedback to a three. It had all of this stuff written down. And I was like, it was just something that just happened because I was like, how would this person who I know is a three receive some really tough feedback?

And it was almost like it sent them into this really growth, extra growth moment, because they’re already growth-oriented person, and they would receive feedback anyway, but it was a really powerful moment that I was just like, holy shit, I may be getting this. You know what I mean? And people starting to feel seen and heard and validated, which I think is really powerful.

Well, cool. Well, I have to say what an amazing conversation. It’s one that I want to continue over and over again and think that this is that we need leaders and us leading ourselves to do really meaningful work in the world. And I think that there’s a lot left to do. So I’m glad all of you are here in the world with me.

Ryan: Yeah, I just have to say thank you to you and Heartland. I don’t think there’s enough of these kinds of conversations happening in the world and I can put a little section of my book and then when you are around other collaborators who share that point of view and perspective and are immersed in that kind of work, it gives me hopeful, makes me hopeful that one out of three people aren’t going to be suffering from a mental health condition at work, or 50% of entrepreneurs aren’t going to think about quitting because they’re having mental health challenges. The stuff is running rampant.

Chris: It is.

Ryan: And I think there’s more responsibility in leaders in corporations to actually do something about it. So my kudos, my hats off and just honestly, it’s been an honor participating in this and spending time with you guys.

Chris: Absolutely. Thank you guys. Thank you ladies.

Ryan: This was awesome.

Chris: Super awesome. Until next time.